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View Diary: Gaza & Israel: Before you can go forward you have to stop going backward (380 comments)

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  •  Well, my point is that the "Gaza problem" won't (7+ / 0-)

    be resolved either by Hamas launching (or not launching) its pipsqueak rockets into Israel, nor by Israel disproportionately bombing the shit out of Gaza (or not bombing the shit out of Gaza) in response.

    The problem is a far greater one and of long-standing. It's a problem of 1.8 million refugees herded into the equivalent of a cattle yard and with no reason for hope of a better future.

    We're shocked by a naked nipple, but not by naked aggression.

    by Lepanto on Tue Jul 15, 2014 at 07:15:59 PM PDT

    [ Parent ]

    •  Hardly "pipsqueak" (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      smartone, cryonaut, Al Abama

      Just because Iron Dome is successful, doesn't mean they're harmless. And, it's the terror and disruption they cause that's the issue. no nation, especially ours would put up with it! How would the good old US of A react to missiles being fired into San Diego from Tijuana? We'd flatten them!

      •  That's not a point in our favor nt (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Unduna, Johnny Q, flowerfarmer

        "The great lie of democracy, its essential paradox, is that democracy is the first to be sacrificed when its security is at risk. Every state is totalitarian at heart; there are no ends to the cruelty it will go to to protect itself." -- Ian McDonald

        by Geenius at Wrok on Tue Jul 15, 2014 at 07:50:34 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Why do the brown folk always get flattened? (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Johnny Q
        •  because Canadians are too polite to bomb (nt) (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          too many people
        •  Who are the "brown folk"? (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          fluffy, sandbox

          Israelis and Palestinians look awfully similar.

          Please explain.

          •  it's an American progressive way of looking at (0+ / 0-)

            things.  Idea being Jewish Israelis= white, Muslim Arabs = brown.  It's completely inaccurate, and not  helpful.  It's a bit like when my friend was referring to African Americans do discuss the situation racial animosity towards black people when we were in Britain.

            I know (most) people here want to help other people, but it would help to view I/P from outside of our Amerocentric universe.

            •  Ironically, "black" in Britain doesn't mean (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Johnny Q

              the same thing as "Black" in the US. In Britain it includes people of Asian descent as well as African descent.

              As for the rest, Muslims are racially coded as brown in the US and when you see the Israeli and Palestinian spokespeople on TV, if there is a Palestinian, there is a notable difference in color most times, the Palestinian representative being darker, and there is always a difference in language. Israeli spokespeople nearly always speak near perfect English, Palestinians less so.

              One of the reasons that support for Israel is so high in the US is because of racism/Islamophobia. Certainly not all supporters support Israel for that reason. I couldn't say whether it's most or  not, but given that support for  Israel is higher among republicans the racist faction may be a majority.

              No War but Class War

              by AoT on Wed Jul 16, 2014 at 07:49:14 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  there are two broad categories of support (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                AoT, UberFubarius

                for Israel in the U.S. and they are completely and totally different.  In the 70s, 80s and some of the 90s, Israel was seen as more of an underdog and hence a democratic issue--humanitarism sided with protection against anti-Semitism and the fact that Israel had been regularly at war with the neighboring Arab states for the previous few decades...as Israel has gotten stronger and as you say anti-Muslim sentiments have expanded in the U.S. it's become a right-wing rallying cry--even though many of the right-wingers 'supporting' Israel are p retty damn virulently anti-Semitic themselves.  

                Which leaves Jews in the U.S.--probably around 75% democratic--soemwhat confused--most of us secular or liberal Zionists support Israel in principle (the idea of a Jewish homeland, knowing that Jewish persecution is real and ongoing) but not its political/miilitary actions--so we defend attacks against it while not condoning what it does.  I'm in that position.  It's a bit of a weird position to be in.

          •  Bye, troll! (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            cville townie

            The easily offended deserve to be easily offended.--God

            by Flyswatterbanjo on Wed Jul 16, 2014 at 02:18:39 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

      •  It wouldn't happen because we're not blockading (4+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Lepanto, Knucklehead, Johnny Q, snoopydawg

        and practicing apartheid on Mexico.  So your analogy just doesn't wash.  How about what would the former South African government have done to the blacks in South Africa?  Even they didn't bomb, and play the joke of calling first.

        "Fragmented and confused, we have no plan to combat any of this, but are looking to be saved by the very architects of our ruination."

        by BigAlinWashSt on Tue Jul 15, 2014 at 08:28:25 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  But...we ARE "occupiers" (0+ / 0-)

          In 1848, we fought a war with Mexico, capturing SoCal, NM, AZ and Texas from Mexico. We've been "occupying" it ever since. We refuse to give former Mexican residents of the "occupied" territory US citizenship! And now we've even built an "apartheid wall". Should we give those states back to Mexico?

          And you can get your ass that if they were firing missiles at us, we'd do a lot more than just blockade them.

          •  There was this thing called WWII, (5+ / 0-)

            during which between 50 and 80 million people died. After that the world decided a few things. One was that conquest by war is illegal. Even Israel agreed. Have you heard of this?

            The easily offended deserve to be easily offended.--God

            by Flyswatterbanjo on Tue Jul 15, 2014 at 09:15:18 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  So what made you pop up here, tonight, (5+ / 0-)

            for the first time? You wouldn't happen to have an agenda would you?  It certainly looks like it.  You're trying to defend Israel like a true believer.  You've got all the propaganda lines down pat.  What's your  purpose, teach every the "truth"?  It's not working as you can see.  In fact, it's not working anymore for Israel, even though it's obvious how hard everyone is working at this point to swing the tide.  People have had it with the racist government and the brutal racism toward the Arab people in Gaza.  It will stop, you can bet.

            "Fragmented and confused, we have no plan to combat any of this, but are looking to be saved by the very architects of our ruination."

            by BigAlinWashSt on Tue Jul 15, 2014 at 09:21:30 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Why? (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Al Abama

              Usually I just read this forum, without participating. However, the Middle East is of particular interest to me, since I have travelled there extensively (Israel, Egypt, Morocco, Jordan). I normally leave heavily leftward, since I can't stand lies and hypocrisy, and I was rather shocked to see how much outright dishonesty and lies were being spread here. When Fox News is actually right for once, something is seriously wrong with the world.

              So yes, I hate propaganda and hypocrisy, and I'm honestly astounded how you guys can be duped so easily when the facts are pretty clear. One side (the Arabs) have done nothing but start multiple wars, and initiate terrorist attacks without regard to civilian life, the other is simply trying to survive in their ancestral homeland, where they've lived continuously since 1300bc (2000 years before Islam).

              The conflict will stop when Hamas and the Palestinian Arabs recognize the nation of Israel, and their right to exist. Israel has already given up huge amounts of land for peace, removing settlements when needed (Sinai, camp David). They're willing to do it again, but the Palestinian Arabs apparently want it all. So, they will get...nothing.

              •  No man, this oppression will stop when the (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Johnny Q

                oppressors stop oppressing.  When they aren't going to do.  Don't put this on Hamas, that's bullshit.  I'm not astounded by fuckers like you.  Racists are everywhere.  You're just another one.  Fuck off.  Really, really fuck off.

                "Fragmented and confused, we have no plan to combat any of this, but are looking to be saved by the very architects of our ruination."

                by BigAlinWashSt on Tue Jul 15, 2014 at 10:45:14 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

              •  Here (0+ / 0-)

                You aren't fooling anybody.

                http://dissidentvoice.org/...

                "Fragmented and confused, we have no plan to combat any of this, but are looking to be saved by the very architects of our ruination."

                by BigAlinWashSt on Tue Jul 15, 2014 at 10:47:01 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  More crazy nonsense..what's next, 9/11 "truthers"? (0+ / 0-)
                •  OK, that has all the hallmarks of crazy (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Proteus7

                  conspiracy-theory BS.

                  Lets see.... secret Jewish control of world governments including USA, UK, and France?  Check!

                  Homophobia and the "Gay agenda"?  Check!

                  George Soros?  (Oh, he's their favorite!)  CHECK!

                  I think a better option would have been to post the original "Yinon Plan", which, BTW, was an EDITORIAL written by a JOURNALIST (if it even still exists).  Doing a simple Google search for "Yinon Plan" turns up all sorts of pages suggesting thats its being treated like a latter day Protocols of the Elders of Zion.

                  My ancestors had to endure Pogroms in Europe because of that crap.  Please stick to primary sources and leave the conspiracy-theory websites aside.

                  "Believe nothing, no matter where you read it, or who said it... unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense." -The Buddha

                  by Brian A on Wed Jul 16, 2014 at 05:01:16 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  good lord. kind of tosses that poster's 'it's (2+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    Brian A, Proteus7

                    policy discussion not anti-Semitism' bit out the window.  

                    •  Just a little bit scary (2+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      Namazga III, Proteus7

                      The whole recent trend of calling any anti-Israel comment as anti-Semitic has really cheapened the meaning of the phrase, and I agree that it is totally non-constructive to throw it around lightly.  

                      But when I start seeing "Zionists secretly run the world" stuff surfacing (and I've seen a lot of it recently), it truly scares me, because I (and I;m sure other American Jews of European Descent) know what sort of awful harm those lies caused my ancestors.

                      "Believe nothing, no matter where you read it, or who said it... unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense." -The Buddha

                      by Brian A on Wed Jul 16, 2014 at 05:47:00 AM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  there is some real, honest to god anti-Semitism (2+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        Brian A, Proteus7

                        here.  I agree that the vast majority of comments that are sometimes labeled anti-Semitic here aren't, and that there's been too much knee-jerk reaction from the pro-I side (Ii'm guilty of a bit of this myself).

                        But progressivism with respect to the I/P conflict in the U.S. has started to emulate its counterpart in Europe, where anti-Semitism is rife.  I'm Jewish, and it rankles me to no end when good (European)friends of mine say things like 'why do Jews get this' or why do Jews feel they're owed this or why are Jews racist, or why do Jews control so much of your media/politics/etc.

                        I'm still friends with these people--although I do what I can to set them straight.  People feel how they feel--i can't change that.

                        But there's some real denialism of that trend here on DKos.  As  Jew who believes in Israel as an entity--but not in its actions, I'm often very uncomfortable in these threads.

                      •  then again--that poster in question is a bit of (2+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        Brian A, Proteus7

                        a loon....

                        •  Is that right? Why do you say that? (1+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          Johnny Q

                          Because I don't agree with your ass?

                          "Fragmented and confused, we have no plan to combat any of this, but are looking to be saved by the very architects of our ruination."

                          by BigAlinWashSt on Wed Jul 16, 2014 at 06:03:29 AM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  no, because you spout anti Jewish bullshit and (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Proteus7

                            practically every one of your comments is a bunch of made-up nonsense.

                            I note you haven't yet addressed the anti-Semitic stuff.

                          •  What anti jewish bullshit? Point it out and I'll (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Johnny Q

                            apologize.  I want to learn here.  

                            "Fragmented and confused, we have no plan to combat any of this, but are looking to be saved by the very architects of our ruination."

                            by BigAlinWashSt on Wed Jul 16, 2014 at 06:18:41 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  read that article you cited. Thats pretty damn (0+ / 0-)

                            anti-Jewish bullshit.  It pretty much SAYS all this is a Jewish plot.  It even goes so far as to stress that it goes beyond a Zionists plot but is really a JEWISH plot.  It's pretty obvious.  I don't need any apologies.  Just as long as you know what you're citing.

                          •  I could have used a better source. My intention (0+ / 0-)

                            was to point out the Oded Yinon plan and how it details breaking up the Arab states, such as Iraq, Syria, Libya, etc., into smaller segments and pitting Shia against Sunni.  Which is what is happening.  I'm not saying that's official Israel policy, i.e., that particular plan, but it's obvious the plan's basics are being carried out.  

                            "Fragmented and confused, we have no plan to combat any of this, but are looking to be saved by the very architects of our ruination."

                            by BigAlinWashSt on Wed Jul 16, 2014 at 06:37:53 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  what's obvious is that all parties are seeking way (0+ / 0-)

                            s to take advantage of the current dissolution.  I fundamentally disagree that the US/Israel/NATO caused it, as that removes all agency from the multitudes of actors involved.  The fraying was bound to happen sooner or later--as it finally did in Tunisia.

                      •  That's not "jews run the world" stuff, that's (1+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        Johnny Q

                        a plan developed in 1982.  Do you feel mentioning that plan is anti semitic?  Is that the deal?  We non jews are not supposed to talk about that plan?  

                        "Fragmented and confused, we have no plan to combat any of this, but are looking to be saved by the very architects of our ruination."

                        by BigAlinWashSt on Wed Jul 16, 2014 at 06:11:13 AM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  I shouldnt engage, but... (2+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          Richard Villiers, Namazga III

                          I'm a scientist.  I deal in primary evidence, not secondary sources like what you posted.

                          It's quite hard to find an actual link to the original Yinon Plan article.  Here is the best I can do, I have no idea if this is authentic or not:

                          http://members.tripod.com/...

                          (Scroll down a bit to find the beginning of the article).

                          Here is the reference for the Yinon article:

                          This essay originally appeared in Hebrew in KIVUNIM (Directions), A Journal for Judaism and Zionism; Issue No, 14--Winter, 5742, February 1982, Editor: Yoram Beck. Editorial Committee: Eli Eyal, Yoram Beck, Amnon Hadari, Yohanan Manor, Elieser Schweid. Published by the Department of Publicity/The World Zionist Organization, Jerusalem.
                          That journal does actually still exist, here is a link:

                          http://www.wzo.org.il/...

                          Note their editorial policy:

                          "Kivunim Hadashim" promotes the absolute pluralism and freedom of expression, and facilitates the expression of different opinions. The views expressed in its articles are the authors' alone and do not necessarily represent the editorial position.
                          OK, so lets review.  We have an EDITORIAL, written by a JOURNALIST, in a journal that has no official bearing on ANYTHING.  And yet you and others are running around holding up this article as being some sort of official 'plan' that Israel has been following for decades now.  Thats sort of like saying that every piece that David Brooks writes automatically becomes official government policy.

                          So no, its not that you have no right to write about it, its that you have no goddamn idea what you're talking about.

                          "Believe nothing, no matter where you read it, or who said it... unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense." -The Buddha

                          by Brian A on Wed Jul 16, 2014 at 06:27:13 AM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  And you're a scientist? Okey dokey. (0+ / 0-)

                            "Fragmented and confused, we have no plan to combat any of this, but are looking to be saved by the very architects of our ruination."

                            by BigAlinWashSt on Wed Jul 16, 2014 at 06:30:55 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Whatever. (0+ / 0-)

                            I didn't post all that so you could read it, I posted it so others could read it.  

                            Honestly, none of this is germane to the discussion above anyways.

                            "Believe nothing, no matter where you read it, or who said it... unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense." -The Buddha

                            by Brian A on Wed Jul 16, 2014 at 06:38:37 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  That's good. People should know about that (3+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Brian A, Claudius Bombarnac, Johnny Q

                            plan and decide for themselves.  I'm not saying it's official Israel policy per se, and I don't think most people are, it's just the blueprint appears to be being followed.  And that started with the neocons and Bush and continues today.  I could have used a better source than that Atzmon fellow, but the point was the plan and how it appears to be being carried out.  
                            If that's anti semitic then have at it.

                            "Fragmented and confused, we have no plan to combat any of this, but are looking to be saved by the very architects of our ruination."

                            by BigAlinWashSt on Wed Jul 16, 2014 at 06:45:42 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                        •  the TITLE of the article is 'THE JEWISH PLAN for (1+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          Proteus7

                          the Middle East and beyond.

                          It says it's not just Zionists, but Jews who are doing all of this orchestration.  It is ABSOLUTELY Protocols of the Elders of Zion type stuff.  

                          The author's whole entry in Wikipedia is about his anti-Semitic leanings.  And his defense?  "I'm not an anti-Semitie.  Actually, what's a Semite really, anyway?'  HE says hiimself "I'm anti-Jewish, not anti-Jews'.

                          The hell if I'd want this guy within 10 miles of my nearest synagogue.

                          Wanna see a self-hating Jew?  This is your guy.

                          Oh and as for the plan?  Wow, so a guy has a plan.  Lots of people have crazy ideas.  Big whoop.

              •  Your initial impulse to not participate in this (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Winston Sm1th

                forum was a good one.

                Since you've been here so long, reading along and all, I guess you know the DBAD rule.

                DBAD.

                The easily offended deserve to be easily offended.--God

                by Flyswatterbanjo on Tue Jul 15, 2014 at 10:50:48 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

              •  I hate it when people "travel extensively" and (0+ / 0-)

                learn nothing.

                •  No, just nothing that conforms to... (0+ / 0-)

                  Your twisted worldview. I've learned FACTS. Spoken with people on both sides. I've stayed with friends in both Zamalek (Cairo) and Tel Aviv (did you know Israeli tourists, and El Al flights were welcome in Egypt)? I've seen in Israel where Israeli Arabs and Jews live together, work together and party together. Did you know Arabs (not just Druze and Bedouin) serve in the IDF? These are things you don't see in the media. Try visiting yourself one day.

              •  More lies and hypocrisy. (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Johnny Q

                You honestly believe that Israelis lived in Israel continuously for 3000 years, but Palestinians just moved there in the 1960's.  

                I understand how this supports your vicious positions in defense of Israeli ethnic cleansing, but you know it is a complete lie.  

                Palestinians have lived in the levant just as long as Jews have.

                •  Winston...read your history (0+ / 0-)

                  Winston. When was Islam founded? When did Arab tribes conquer the area for the first time? Here's a clue..roughly 750-800AD. The kingdom of Israel was founded roughly 1300BCE. The city of Jerusalem around 1000BC.

                  Q.E.D

                  •  I'm an Israel supporter but this is silly. (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    Winston Sm1th

                    Yeah, Judaism is older than Islam.  Also Islam was established in the 7th century, not the 8th-9th.  But Jews and non-Jews have been in the area together for millennia.  Zionism itself is certainly extremely old--dates back to the Iron Age--but people who you could call Palestinians certainly lived in the area then as well--the fact that they may not have self-identified as Palestinian isn't particularly important.  As for national identity from a nation-state perspective, both the drive for a Jewish state in the 19th century sense (e.g. the Zionist political entity) and a Palestinian state are fairly new.  Herzl basically placed the Zionist motivation in the context of a way of thinking that we didnt really see until the 1848 revolutions.

                    This is a long winded way of saying that it really doesnt' matter who was there first, since lots of people were there from time immemorial.  I'm sure that the Arabs living in Palestine self identified in different ways during the Ottoman period.  But none of that nullifies the fact that both groups self-identify now, and both need a homeland where their security is ensured.

                  •  I have two degrees in ancient languages and (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    AoT

                    ancient mediterranean history.

                    When was Islam founded? When did Arab tribes conquer the area for the first time? Here's a clue..roughly 750-800AD. The kingdom of Israel was founded roughly 1300BCE.
                    What does Islam have to do with Palestinians?  Many Palestinians are Muslim, and many are not.  How many Christian Palestinians live under occupation?
                    •  In that case.. (0+ / 0-)

                      Christian Palestinians are 1-3% of the total, so try again. Most emigrated away long ago, thanks to pressure and prejudice from Hamas and Islamic Jihad.

                      You can't separate religion out of this, if you do, then it could easily be argued that the millions of Mizrahi (Arab) Jews in Israel (making up half the population now) are ALSO Palestinian, as they are either descendants of the Jews that have ALWAYS lived in the region of Palestine, or descended from the 750,000 Arab Jews who were forcefully expelled or terrorized into leaving surrounding lands. Or are you going to try and deny that historical fact? The difference is of course that Israel took in and absorbed those refugees, rather than letting them rot in refugee camps.

                      •  christian palestinians (0+ / 0-)
                        They are approximately 8% of the West Bank population, less than 1% in Gaza, and nearly 10% of Israel's Arab population.
                        Clearly there are Jewish Arabs, we have already established that.

                        The truth is that you advocate and support the ethnic cleansing of non-jewish Arabs from Palestine.  

                        All your historical reductions arguments are posited as a distraction to avoid admitting the truth of your position.  

                        •  My arguments are based on fact.... (0+ / 0-)

                          While you seem to have nothing but meaningless platitudes about "reduction". Yet, in the end, everything can be reduced to facts, and cold, hard logic. You, at no point, mentioned the millions of Jewish Arabs and their descendants who were also dispossessed from Muslim lands, in numbers greater than the original Palestinian Arabs fleeing Israel after 1948. The fact that their fellow nations cynically used them as a bargaining tool rather than properly absorbing and integrating them is certainly not Israel's fault. The "nakba" as the Palestinians call it was nothing more than a classical population transfer. 650,000 Palestinians Arabs left, and 750,000 Jews arrived, after fleeing Arab countries. Rather like what happened with India and Pakistan.

                          •  I have already disproved enough of your facts. (0+ / 0-)

                            It is not mysterious why you prefer to talk about Tiglath Pileser III and your revisionist history of the nakba.  You can't explain away the facts of today.

                            Here are the facts:  The UN, the US, and every other nation on earth recognizes the rights of Palestinians to live in Palestine.

                            The UN recognizes the right of return, requiring Israel to allow ethnically cleansed Palestinians to return to land from which they were forcibly removed, or to be fairly compensated.

                            The US recognizes that there will be a sovereign Palestinian state in territory delineated by 1967 borders.

                            The US recognizes that Palestinians are under no obligations to abandon additional territory under duress.

                            The rest of the nations in the world, in universal opinion, have already indicated that unless Israel allows a disposition for Palestinians, including the right to return, they are willing to impose sanctions on Israel so crippling that they would make Israel a failed rogue state.

                            The fact is that if the United States linked diplomatic and financial support to the advancement of our own stated policies, Israel would need to immediately recognized Palestinian rights or become a failed state.  

                            You advocate ethnically cleansing Palestine of Arabs, you do not belong on this progressive website.  And that's a fact, too.

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