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View Diary: “The Coming Democratic Schism,” Thomas Edsall’s NY Times’ Must-Read (Updated) (484 comments)

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  •  too many young people (14+ / 0-)

    buy into the american dream myth.

    The cold passion for truth hunts in no pack. -Robinson Jeffers

    by Laurence Lewis on Wed Jul 16, 2014 at 01:07:49 AM PDT

    •  Too many young people now think of "history"... (28+ / 0-) events that occurred the previous month.

      "I always thought if you worked hard enough and tried hard enough, things would work out. I was wrong." --Katharine Graham

      by bobswern on Wed Jul 16, 2014 at 01:11:39 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Therein lies the problem (19+ / 0-)
        Too many young people now think of "history" as events that occurred the previous month.
        They seem incapable of thinking in terms of generations or centuries or eras which are only one or two generations "old."  Anything farther back than that never existed and didn't happen, as far as they are concerned.

        Events or movements that did not happen within their living memory (short-term memory at that) - and which had no impact on their personal lives - are dismissed as irrelevant.

        I've read statements by brand new adults (just turned 18) and those within five years either side of 18 that are so self-centered and "me, me, me, me, me" centric that I have been rendered breathless.  It's made me wonder if they are born psychopaths who are incapable of empathy.  The self-absorption is astonishing..., and mirrored in sitcoms geared for audiences their age (if previews are any indication of the thinking processes of people their age; I don't watch them).

        It's a sad state of affairs.

        I'm sick of attempts to steer this nation from principles evolved in The Age of Reason to hallucinations derived from illiterate herdsmen. ~ Crashing Vor

        by NonnyO on Wed Jul 16, 2014 at 01:46:06 AM PDT

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        •  twitter, selfies, and reality tv. nt (3+ / 0-)

          Tired of being trickled down on?

          by tovan on Wed Jul 16, 2014 at 02:36:52 AM PDT

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        •  Psychopaths? Seriously? So we're back to blamin... (16+ / 0-)

          Psychopaths? Seriously? So we're back to blaming young people for not getting off our lawns even though they have very little political and economic power and certainly don't start wars or crash economies, although they have to face the consequences along with everyone else.

        •  They're not incapable of historical thinking. (33+ / 0-)

          They just don't know any history. I've found that my students know, for example, that there was such a thing as the Great Depression in the 1930s. But they are dumbfounded when I show them videos and cite statistics that demonstrate what the Depression really meant.

          •  THIS ^ (10+ / 0-)

            Young people don't have any historical context for any of the scary and strange things that are happening in our economy and world, and yet so many people see fit to blame them for entering a world of confusion for which they've been improperly and inadequately prepared when they are at first incapable of properly diagnosing political circumstances, distinguishing between ideological ethos, and understanding the complex interplay of politics-economics-religion-human rights-foreign policy etc...etc...etc...

            Seriously, wiser generations, get of the damn soapbox. If our children don't understand or know history (and believe me, in general they don't) who's fault is that?

            We need to place far greater emphasis on history in our public schools. I didn't need advanced trigonometry to make informed electoral decisions when I reached voting age.  I did, however, need to be able to logically distinguish the party of Lincoln from the current manifestation of the republican party. Something that many modern republicans are incapable of doing. And please understand my intent is not to disparage mathematics education in any sense.

          •  My experience is that (5+ / 0-)

            despite the fact that more of our children go to college, those who make it through their undergraduate years are not much better educated than those who graduated from high school in my generation.  We've watered down high school and undergraduate education in order to make both more accessible to less prepared students.

            Newt 2012. Sociopath, adulterer, hypocrite, Republican.

            by tikkun on Wed Jul 16, 2014 at 08:11:48 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  This is one reason I home school. My young kids (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:

            know this.

            They know what a Hooverville is. They know what the Great Depression is.

            But their peers? Still reading See Dick and Jane Run type books just to catch up with 4th grade reading.

            I blame our state school system for that. But I don't have the power to fix it, so I figured we would be the change I wanted to see.

            "It were a thousand times better for the land if all Witches, but especially the blessing Witch, might suffer death." qtd by Ehrenreich & English. For Her Own Good, Two Centuries of Expert's Advice to Women pp 40

            by GreenMother on Wed Jul 16, 2014 at 08:27:30 AM PDT

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          •  Yup (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            TracieLynn, snwflk, NonnyO

            I thought that WWII was "ancient history" when I was a kid.  As I've aged, it felt closer and closer to time.  

            It wasn't until I went to Hamburg last week on vacation (a city that was largely destroyed in WWII) that just how RECENT that war was really hit me.  

            They could not tear down the WWII control bunkers.  So they've converted them into apartments, and in one case, an art school.  

            They chose not to repair the grand St Nikolai cathedral and now it's a memorial museum to the civilian victims of air strikes in Germany and other countries.

            You randomly encounter brass bricks on the street in front of homes.  These are micro memorials for Jews who were deported from the city to their deaths.

            The Cake is a lie. In Pie there is Truth. ~ Fordmandalay

            by catwho on Wed Jul 16, 2014 at 08:43:23 AM PDT

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          •  I didn't learn about the Vietnam War (0+ / 0-)

            until I was in high school. didn't even know it happened.

        •  I think I need to embed... (0+ / 0-)

          ...that video I posted in the other thread where old farts were telling people my age to get off their lawn about how we Millennials suck and we're sorry.

          With people like you as our examples for what the parties of our parents think, pardon us if we don't buy in to the bullshit.


          Everyday Magic
          Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.
          -- Clarke's Third Law

          by The Technomancer on Wed Jul 16, 2014 at 07:36:56 AM PDT

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          •  I think the Millenials can change the world. (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            New Rule

            Pew's report on Millenials (which came out a few months before the one Edsall reports on) gives a much better description of Millenial's views than the later report.

            The Millenial report showed that M's have common cause with another group -- what I'm calling the Hippie Cohort of the Boomer generation.  (The 40-somethings are more aligned with the generation that preceded the Boomers.)

            My hope is that the Millenials and the Hippie Cohort will come together and reinvent government.

        •  Meh. Such has been (6+ / 0-)

          the complaint of adults about the "kids these days" for as far back into [real] history as there are written complaints for us to read. Self-absorption is and has always been a strong trait of adolescent/young adult humans. They eventually grow out of it unless their parents volunteer to pay all their living expenses for them for the rest of their lives.

          In lieu of a hefty trust fund (we call those "Trust-a-farians" around here) they do eventually confront the reality of our unbreakable caste system when they have to buy their own tools and toys while barely being able to keep the electricity and phone on month to month.

          There are three kinds of men. The one that learns by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence for themselves. - Will Rogers

          by Joieau on Wed Jul 16, 2014 at 07:57:22 AM PDT

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      •  We were all stupid kids once (15+ / 0-)

        It took me years to shake off all that patriotic bullshit we were lied to about in school.

        Hillary does not have the benefit of a glib tongue.

        by The Dead Man on Wed Jul 16, 2014 at 05:35:49 AM PDT

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        •  Try telling them that.... (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:

          That's the problem.   Not only is history yesterday's tweets, they don't think they're "stupid" even in the most loving sense of the word; and no amount of logic or fact will convince them otherwise.

          I will not vote for Hillary.

          by dkmich on Wed Jul 16, 2014 at 05:49:19 AM PDT

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        •  Seriously!! (13+ / 0-)

          My child is currently in high school, in virtual school, so I've gotten to see some of the curriculum, and I've read some of the State curriculum standards.

          There are things in there like, "emphasize the benefits of the capitalist system" that are enforced by State Law.     Not "teach the characteristics", but "emphasize the benefits".    Nothing against capitalism, but no system is perfect.   Another name for Laisez Faire Capitalism is "Dickensian", invoking the pure misery described in Dickens novels of life for many under a "capitalist" system.

          In another instance, a literature assignment interpreted a line in a poem about the labor of slaves working grain fields as "effortless".     If you didn't interpreted the author's meaning as suggesting that the slaves work was "effortless" instead of "skilled", you got the question wrong.    It seemed to be push-polling a notion of "kinder, gentler" interpretation of slavery in the South.

          •  DING DING DING DING! THIS!!!!!!!! (4+ / 0-)

            Thank you DFWmom! Thank You Thank You Thank You!

            And this crap started in the 1980s!

            To which I say, DO The Math!

            "It were a thousand times better for the land if all Witches, but especially the blessing Witch, might suffer death." qtd by Ehrenreich & English. For Her Own Good, Two Centuries of Expert's Advice to Women pp 40

            by GreenMother on Wed Jul 16, 2014 at 08:29:54 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  What state? (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:

            Grain fields being worked is "Effortless" for the people owning or watching the slaves doing the labor, I guess. Other than that, how could that interpretation make any sense?

            Although, I vividly recall having a Virginia History book in fourth or fifth grade which had an illustration of some happy slaves dancing to a fiddler while others appeared to be enjoying a repast spread out on a picnic table. Even at my age I looked at it and thought "WTF?!"

            “Human kindness has never weakened the stamina or softened the fiber of a free people. A nation does not have to be cruel to be tough.” FDR

            by Phoebe Loosinhouse on Thu Jul 17, 2014 at 02:15:34 AM PDT

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            •  It was not unusual in Oklahoma in the 70s (0+ / 0-)

              to read material about the South and Slavery that truly did not do justice to the horror of the institution itself with all it's myriad affects on the peoples it touched.

              And this was accompanied by bucolic scenes "art" if you will that depicted slavery and slaves in some manner that suggested that they had a decent life provided by their owners. (feel free to scream now)

              It's bullshit. Just as much bullshit as the non-address of the underlying factors that drove the suffragette movement and later feminist waves,  the labor movement nor the depredations that lead to Hoovervilles, and the Civil Rights Movement.

              But then this is the danger of glossing over deep topics. The kids swallow crap that is shallow and intellectually dishonest, and this in turn helps shape their worldview as they become adults and also contributes to the age of the low information voter.

              Never a truer sentiment has been expressed:

              Those who do not know their history are doomed to repeat it.
              Without a hint of understanding about all these issues (and more) in American history, then adults deprived of that comprehension will not be able to address modern problems driven by that history, such as:

              Wealth Extraction from minorities and minority communities, which started with reparations.

              Institutional sexism, and racism.

              Classism used as a gate keeper in higher education and racism as a dynamic in the school-to-jail pipeline.

              The need for Medicare and Social Security Programs for the elderly and infirm.

              Indigent healthcare, and prohibitions against insurance (and eventually employers) from hiring and firing or covering people based on pre-existing conditions, pregnancy, disability, or ageism.

              Ending the Roulette wheel of speculatory investment in our higher economic institution.

              Food security and safety

              and a whole lot more.

              "It were a thousand times better for the land if all Witches, but especially the blessing Witch, might suffer death." qtd by Ehrenreich & English. For Her Own Good, Two Centuries of Expert's Advice to Women pp 40

              by GreenMother on Thu Jul 17, 2014 at 10:17:43 AM PDT

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              •  Sorry Reconstruction--not reparations. (0+ / 0-)

                Apologies for any confusion.

                "It were a thousand times better for the land if all Witches, but especially the blessing Witch, might suffer death." qtd by Ehrenreich & English. For Her Own Good, Two Centuries of Expert's Advice to Women pp 40

                by GreenMother on Thu Jul 17, 2014 at 10:18:55 AM PDT

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        •  Let em join the military--that'll it kick it out (0+ / 0-)

          of them much quicker.

          "It were a thousand times better for the land if all Witches, but especially the blessing Witch, might suffer death." qtd by Ehrenreich & English. For Her Own Good, Two Centuries of Expert's Advice to Women pp 40

          by GreenMother on Wed Jul 16, 2014 at 08:28:26 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  oh, gods. (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:

          Jesus wept.

          The "younger" group is not millenials nor Gen Y; the "younger" group has an average age of 38 and 30% of its members are 50 or over.

          Thus, this whole discussion is based on a major fallacy.

          There is no way for a citizen of a Republic to abdicate his responsibilities. ---Edward R. Murrow

          by SouthernLiberalinMD on Wed Jul 16, 2014 at 10:00:59 AM PDT

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      •  Or maybe they heard of Socialism's failures (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Bob Guyer, duhban

        in the past 100 years.

        Had democratic socialism flourished instead of Soviet thuggery, we'd be living in a much nicer world I suspect. Perhaps even near-utopian.

        The Left has still not fully recovered from the horrors Lenin unleashed upon the world IMHO. He hijacked one of the brightest moments of hope for humanity and drove it straight to HELL. The past is the past...but Lord Knows it can cast a dark shadow.

        Oh and since I've been heavy into Alt. History lately, here's a fun consideration: If the Cold War had ended with even a (ahem) "mild" WW3 where merely a few tens of millions were incinerated by Russia, "socialism" would be as toxic as fascism was after WW2. The Left as we know it really would be destroyed for a century or two. Just another reason to be glad the nukes never flew.

        "See? I'm not a racist! I have a black friend!"

        by TheHalfrican on Wed Jul 16, 2014 at 06:57:50 AM PDT

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    •  IMO the Pew Poll is inaccurate on economic issues (13+ / 0-)

      Theres no way that young voters, who have been victimized by current economic policy and who created the Occupy movement and the term economic inequality, are libertarian bootstrappers. There's also no way that their leanings towards Socialist beliefs translates into conservative leanings on economic issues.

      Pew either got a bad sample,  didn't phrase their questions accurately, or are conflating the opinions of two ideologically diverse age cohorts.  It doesn't wash. I'd prefer to see more quality, unbiased polling of Millenials before accepting these bizarre results as CW.

      Money is property, not speech. Overturn Citizens United.

      by Betty Pinson on Wed Jul 16, 2014 at 06:43:51 AM PDT

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      •  The Most Adverturous (0+ / 0-)

        leaders are always the rare few of any group.  Occupy was the brain child of very adventurous and extremely bright (they don't always go together) young people.  They were not, by any stretch of the imagination, the majority of their age cohorts.  The question I'd be more interested in examining is the effect that Occupy had on their less adventurous members of their cohorts.  Pew may not be entirely accurate, but I don't think it can be discounted.

        Newt 2012. Sociopath, adulterer, hypocrite, Republican.

        by tikkun on Wed Jul 16, 2014 at 08:19:50 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Betty, check out the average age of the (6+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        wu ming, gulfgal98, TracieLynn, BYw, snwflk, delver

        "younger" group. It's 38. Liberty Equality Fraternity and Trees has delved deeper into the data and says that 30% of each "younger" category is over 50 years old.

        They've thrown my generation into the mix in an incredibly disingenuous way, and lots of people of good faith are accepting it as truth.

        I'm trying to push back on this, but it's hard after a night of insomnia and no coffee (coffee machine broke this morning, so I'm not in the best of moods).

        There is no way for a citizen of a Republic to abdicate his responsibilities. ---Edward R. Murrow

        by SouthernLiberalinMD on Wed Jul 16, 2014 at 08:20:58 AM PDT

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      •  Have you read the full report? (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        wu ming, delver

        It shows the "New Generation Left" to be more like "Solid Liberals" than not. On a few things they skew libertarian, and the highllighted article is zeroing in on those. And the differences don't seem to be so much ideology. For example, they definitely believe government should help the poor, but they don't think we can afford to do much more than we are doing already.

        “Texas is a so-called red state, but you’ve got 10 million Democrats here in Texas. And …, there are a whole lot of people here in Texas who need us, and who need us to fight for them.” President Obama

        by Catte Nappe on Wed Jul 16, 2014 at 08:49:07 AM PDT

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      •  Where's the Occupy movement now? (0+ / 0-)

        it's barely relevant, if at all

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