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  •  Thank you so much for clearing this up-- (18+ / 0-)

    I really, really hate the pseudo-history circulated on a regular basis about the Tea Party (the original Tea Party, that is).

    There is no way for a citizen of a Republic to abdicate his responsibilities. ---Edward R. Murrow

    by SouthernLiberalinMD on Thu Jul 17, 2014 at 08:08:13 AM PDT

    •  YepToday's TP Should Dress Like Islamic Terrorists (9+ / 0-)

      since the originals dressed as Natives, shortly afterward described in the Declaration of Independence as terrorists. And dump Wal*Mart containers into the harbor.

      We are called to speak for the weak, for the voiceless, for victims of our nation and for those it calls enemy.... --ML King "Beyond Vietnam"

      by Gooserock on Thu Jul 17, 2014 at 08:42:56 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Diary is an example of British Conquest not (0+ / 0-)

      Capitalism nor market economies.

      The most important way to protect the environment is not to have more than one child.

      by nextstep on Thu Jul 17, 2014 at 10:33:53 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Not true (7+ / 0-)

        It wasn't even Britain that conquered Bengal. It was a private company, with a private mercenary army.
          That was the critical distinction in the Pratt-Yorke opinion.

         For reasons of ideology, capitalists just can't stand the idea that there are obvious flaws in their pet theories.

        "The oppressors most powerful weapon is the mind of the oppressed." - Stephen Biko

        by gjohnsit on Thu Jul 17, 2014 at 10:43:53 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Conquest is not part of market economies and (0+ / 0-)

          capitalism.  Guns and mercenaries are not part of voluntary transactions which is the foundation of market economics.  What you describe is better described as conquest or piracy.

          The most important way to protect the environment is not to have more than one child.

          by nextstep on Thu Jul 17, 2014 at 10:56:32 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Your idea of capitalism is divorced from reality (7+ / 0-)

            It doesn't exist in the real world and it has never existed in the real world.
              You may as well compare it to Libertarian Heaven.

             Capitalism is about capitalist profits. Not fair play.

            "The oppressors most powerful weapon is the mind of the oppressed." - Stephen Biko

            by gjohnsit on Thu Jul 17, 2014 at 11:00:04 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Countries can engage in conquest under many (0+ / 0-)

              economic systems.

              Do you consider the USSR's attacks on Finland in 1939 an act of conquest or an act of Socialism/Communism?

              The most important way to protect the environment is not to have more than one child.

              by nextstep on Thu Jul 17, 2014 at 11:15:17 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

          •  The definition of capitalism and slavery (5+ / 0-)

            merriam-webster

             a way of organizing an economy so that the things that are used to make and transport products (such as land, oil, factories, ships, etc.) are owned by individual people and companies rather than by the government
            Investopedia
             A system of economics based on the private ownership of capital and production inputs, and on the production of goods and services for profit. The production of goods and services is based on supply and demand in the general market (market economy), rather than through central planning (planned economy). Capitalism is generally characterized by competition between producers.
            Wikipedia
             Capitalism is an economic system in which trade, industry, and the means of production are largely or entirely privately owned and operated for profit.[1][2] Central characteristics of capitalism include capital accumulation, competitive markets and wage labour.[3] In a capitalist economy, the parties to a transaction typically determine the prices at which assets, goods, and services are exchanged.
            Notice the lack of any mention of "voluntary transactions". Why? Because it's called "capitalism" not "voluntary transactionism". The transaction of capital between private owners is all that matters. It doesn't matter how it transacts between those private owners.
               That's why slavery was a very profitable private enterprise of wealthy capitalists for centuries. People became the capital and were transacted between private parties.
               What put an end to slavery was socialism.

            "The oppressors most powerful weapon is the mind of the oppressed." - Stephen Biko

            by gjohnsit on Thu Jul 17, 2014 at 11:14:36 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Countries were ending Slavery before any modern (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Sparhawk

              long before the concept of socialism.  See Abolition of slavery timeline one of the very best pages to read on the Internet to understand the world history of slavery.

              So unless socialists from the future used a time machine, crediting socialism with ending slavery makes no sense.

              In the texts you quote above, the use of voluntary transactions is implicit.

              The most important way to protect the environment is not to have more than one child.

              by nextstep on Thu Jul 17, 2014 at 11:29:32 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  The concept of slavery was born from (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                aliasalias

                the French Revolution. That was before most nations abolished slavery.
                  In fact, Revolutionary France at the peak of leftist control was the first major nation to abolish slavery.
                  You need to read up on socialism.

                As for your comment below

                the use of voluntary transactions is implicit
                 Only for those who believe strongly enough.

                "The oppressors most powerful weapon is the mind of the oppressed." - Stephen Biko

                by gjohnsit on Thu Jul 17, 2014 at 11:35:13 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  I meant "socialism" not "slavery" (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  aliasalias

                  came from the French Revolution.

                  Obviously slavery comes from pre-history

                  "The oppressors most powerful weapon is the mind of the oppressed." - Stephen Biko

                  by gjohnsit on Thu Jul 17, 2014 at 11:37:55 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Read the "Abolition of slavery timeline " linked (0+ / 0-)

                    in my comment above.  

                    Slavery was being outlawed before the French Revolution.

                    The most important way to protect the environment is not to have more than one child.

                    by nextstep on Thu Jul 17, 2014 at 11:49:14 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  The Qin Dynasty (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      aliasalias

                      outlawed slavery in 220 B.C.
                        so what?

                       I've read that link a dozen times before you posted it for research on past diaries I've done on slavery.

                        the fact is that slavery was still picking up steam until the Haitian Revolution started in 1791.
                         And the inspiration of the Haitian Revolution was The Rights of Man.

                      "The oppressors most powerful weapon is the mind of the oppressed." - Stephen Biko

                      by gjohnsit on Thu Jul 17, 2014 at 12:29:13 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  What evidence do you have that (0+ / 0-)

                        "slavery was picking up steam"  just prior to 1791?

                        US states were outlawing slavery outright or in the transition to outlaw (no new slaves in the state), other counties were making slavery and the slave trade illegal

                        And yes Qin Dynasty does pre-date the French Revolution.

                        What evidence do you have that "slavery was picking up steam"  just prior to 1791?

                        The most important way to protect the environment is not to have more than one child.

                        by nextstep on Thu Jul 17, 2014 at 12:39:31 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  Peak slavery (1+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          aliasalias

                          link

                           The Atlantic slave trade peaked in the late 18th century, when the largest number of slaves were captured on raiding expeditions into the interior of West Africa.
                           But we are starting to get away from the point at hand.
                             I notice that you don't disagree that slavery was a capitalist enterprise. And slavery is by definition, not a voluntary transaction.

                            Capitalism is about capital.

                          "The oppressors most powerful weapon is the mind of the oppressed." - Stephen Biko

                          by gjohnsit on Thu Jul 17, 2014 at 12:59:47 PM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  Slavery is not part of Capitalism or market (0+ / 0-)

                            economies just as rape is not part of loving sex.  Trying to link capitalism to slavery is comparable to those on the right linking how North Korea treats its people with socialism - doing so is done solely to slander.  

                            Slavery has its founding from pre-history, the ideas of conquests where the losers and their progeny become slaves, and that those people who are not of our group are to be treated as lesser humans.

                            The most important way to protect the environment is not to have more than one child.

                            by nextstep on Thu Jul 17, 2014 at 01:16:40 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  You are in deep denial (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            aliasalias

                            Who do you think traded in slaves? And what was their purpose? More importantly, what did they think of themselves?

                             You seem to have circular logic - that capitalism is about voluntary transactions, thus anything not involving voluntary transactions cannot be capitalism.
                               That's not a scientific process. It's a religious one.

                             I've already pointed out that the definition of capitalism doesn't require voluntary transactions - only capital.

                              America's capitalist system was built upon slavery.
                              British capitalism was built upon slavery.

                              To say the slave trade wasn't capitalism is to deny reality.

                            "The oppressors most powerful weapon is the mind of the oppressed." - Stephen Biko

                            by gjohnsit on Thu Jul 17, 2014 at 01:32:51 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  You confuse buying and selling with market (0+ / 0-)

                            economies and capitalism.  Capitalism and market economies are not the only economic systems with buying and selling. For example, under fudalism, socialism and communism there is still buying and selling.  There is buying and selling in Cuba and North Korea, but few would argue they are capitalist or market based.  One could argue that Ancient Rome was socialist - government owned extensive infrastructure including roads, ports, bridges, aqueducts, arenas, assistance to the poor and bread and circuses for the masses - they also had slaves.  

                            The economist most closely associated with capitalism and market economies is Adam Smith, who opposed slavery, imperialism and colonialism on moral and economic grounds as did his followers.  For his time, that was outside the mainstream.

                            Most all of the world had slavery and or serfdom 300 years ago.  Essentially, with extremely rare exception, all of human civilization has been built upon slavery.  Societies built upon Marxism or Socialism are also built upon slavery, serfdom, etc., as much as capitalism simply because the society had slaves in its earlier civilizations.

                            The most important way to protect the environment is not to have more than one child.

                            by nextstep on Thu Jul 17, 2014 at 03:16:22 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Re: (0+ / 0-)

                            I think I get what you are trying to say, but you are setting an incredibly high bar that even you can't reach.
                               Let me explain.

                              I look at the transaction to determine whether capitalism is happening. (i.e. is the person acting for capitalist reasons)
                               You seem to be looking at the entire economy (is this a capitalist economy according to the most strict definition).

                              By using that restriction, there are no capitalist economies on the planet today and there never were. Nor will there ever be. Because they are all mixed economies at some level.
                              It doesn't matter that the Medici were capitalist bankers because feudalism was the rule of the day.
                              It doesn't matter that people are getting rich in Sweden in a capitalist way because there is elements of socialism around.
                              It doesn't matter that the slave trader was buying and selling slaves in the exact same way a present-day commodity broker would for the exact same reasons, because the slaves weren't willing partners.
                              And, of course, it doesn't matter that the EIC was a capitalist corporation acting in a capitalist way for capitalist reasons, because the situation wasn't created in a strictly capitalist way.

                              It's a ridiculously high bar that libertarians often use that makes their own statements as useful as the monks of the middle ages arguing about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.

                            "The oppressors most powerful weapon is the mind of the oppressed." - Stephen Biko

                            by gjohnsit on Thu Jul 17, 2014 at 03:58:47 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  In a slavery transaction not all parties agree to (0+ / 0-)

                            the transaction - because one is a slave.  In market economics and capitalism slavery is seen as theft of the slave's labor, life, freedom to act as she sees fit and more.

                            Market economics and capitalism is not indifferent to the buying and selling of what is stolen.  If anything, slavery is seen as the most reprehensible and damaging of thefts.  In the sale of stolen property, not all parties agree to the transaction, as the legitimate owner does not agree.  That is why when stolen property is recovered, the property is given back to the rightful owner even though an innocent person may have purchased the stolen property - as it was not a legitimate transaction.

                            As far as your concept of people acting for capitalist reasons goes, extremely few people think this way.  More typically, people think in terms of what is in my own best interest, or my family's interest, or group that I closely identify with.  People generally think this way in whatever economic system they live in, including socialist, communist, etc.. Talk to people who lived in the USSR or pre-1980 China about this.

                            Even people who are Maoists, will choose to buy the lower priced of two products they want for themselves, all other things being equal, but they don't suddenly become capitalists every time they make a purchase.

                            The most important way to protect the environment is not to have more than one child.

                            by nextstep on Thu Jul 17, 2014 at 04:37:43 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  As I said (0+ / 0-)

                            There are no capitalist economies. Never were. Never will be.

                             At least according to those standards.

                            "The oppressors most powerful weapon is the mind of the oppressed." - Stephen Biko

                            by gjohnsit on Thu Jul 17, 2014 at 08:29:26 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                •  And France reinstated slavery in 1802. (0+ / 0-)

                  The most important way to protect the environment is not to have more than one child.

                  by nextstep on Thu Jul 17, 2014 at 12:01:48 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                •  Portugal banned slavery in 1761 and it was a major (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Sparhawk

                  country at the time.  

                  Spain enacted the first European law abolishing colonial slavery in 1542 and Spain was a major country at the time.

                  The most important way to protect the environment is not to have more than one child.

                  by nextstep on Thu Jul 17, 2014 at 12:07:40 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  You need to research this stuff (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    aliasalias

                    Not just post the link and read the first line.

                    Spain enacted the first European law abolishing colonial slavery in 1542 and Spain was a major country at the time.
                    Spain not only enslaved the native Americans for centuries after this law, they were huge in the African-American slave trade all the up to the mid-1800's.

                      Trust me. Do the research. The Haitian Revolution, starting in 1791, and the French law freeing the slaves in 1794, that started it all.

                    "The oppressors most powerful weapon is the mind of the oppressed." - Stephen Biko

                    by gjohnsit on Thu Jul 17, 2014 at 12:33:49 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

          •  Whoa, what, really? (0+ / 0-)

            Chiquita Banana, Dole, and Shell Oil Corporations beg to differ.

            There is no way for a citizen of a Republic to abdicate his responsibilities. ---Edward R. Murrow

            by SouthernLiberalinMD on Thu Jul 17, 2014 at 11:23:03 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

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