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View Diary: 295 aboard downed Malaysia Airlines flight over eastern Ukraine near border with Russia (330 comments)

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  •  Good points, because the questions (8+ / 0-)

    If
    1. Intentional shooting of a passenger jet
    A) Someone would want to internationalize the crisis?
    B) Someone would believe it possible to plant blame?
    2. Unintentional shooting of a passenger jet
    A) Someone with means, but not training
    B) Someone with means and training but poor command

    If anyone says, "The Ukrainians have the systems," they're going to have to posit that regular armed forces, under command, trained, met the points in #1. If anyone says #1, then that person has to grapple with the subpoints.

    What you've gotten from New Republic sounds more likely: non-professional forces with a powerful weapon shooting at something they thought was the enemy. And this is if we're talking about a missile strike at all.

    "for all the murders, rapes, and thefts,/ Committed in the horrid lust of war,/ He that unjustly caus'd it first proceed,/ Shall find it in his grave and in his seed." -- Webster, "The White Devil," IV i 8-12.

    by The Geogre on Thu Jul 17, 2014 at 11:04:44 AM PDT

    [ Parent ]

    •  You're leaving out a third possibility: (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      TofG, merrywidow

      Russians shot the plane down.

      LG: You know what? You got spunk. MR: Well, Yes... LG: I hate spunk!

      by dinotrac on Thu Jul 17, 2014 at 11:17:54 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Not likely, (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Wreck Smurfy, METAL TREK

        the plane was going west-to-east, I think it's clear it must have been the separatists.

        … the NSA takes significant care to prevent any abuses and that there is a substantial oversight system in place,” Sen. Dianne Feinstein (D-California), said August 23.

        by mosesfreeman on Thu Jul 17, 2014 at 11:25:15 AM PDT

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      •  It's possible, but really counterproductive (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        dinotrac, METAL TREK

        The Russians would have a hundred reasons not to. They're not succeeding, so far, in getting the world press to notice the fascists in the Ukrainian nationalist movement, and they're trying to win the point that they are complying with international demands to not supply separatists, so a command to violate their own rules would really, really hurt them.

        If we get out of U.S. media, we see that the Russians are aware of the damage sanctions are doing them over Ukraine. They want an imperial Russia, probably, and an ethnic Russia, surely, but they're not stupid.

        "for all the murders, rapes, and thefts,/ Committed in the horrid lust of war,/ He that unjustly caus'd it first proceed,/ Shall find it in his grave and in his seed." -- Webster, "The White Devil," IV i 8-12.

        by The Geogre on Thu Jul 17, 2014 at 12:22:55 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  I think it's increasingly noticed (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          The Geogre

          by Europe in particular that neo-nazis are involved with the Kiev government.

          I don't think that's a result of Russia pushing the issue so much as a few European reporters doing real journalism.

        •  Agreed. Say what you want about Putin but he is (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          The Geogre

          NOT stupid. I would think the LAST thing he wants is Russia's fingerprints all over an international incident involving the shooting down of a commercial flight (one that had Americans on board, no less). IF the plane was indeed shot down, I'm willing to bet it was a rogue act by local rebel forces.

          I could be wrong but that's how I see it based on what I've seen so far.

          A village can not reorganize village life to suit the village idiot.

          by METAL TREK on Thu Jul 17, 2014 at 03:44:02 PM PDT

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      •  Also there's a possibility Ukrainian fascist fo... (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        dinotrac, protectspice

        Also there's a possibility Ukrainian fascist forces shot it down to pin the blame on separatists.. At this point I don't believe anyone. I definitely don't believe anything coming from any official mouthpiece from the area.

      •  That would be about as likely as the US (0+ / 0-)

        shooting it down.

        Russia would have absolutely zero to gain from that.

        •  Two questions come with that: (0+ / 0-)

          1. Would THEY (as opposed to you) see it that way?
          2. Does your presumption include the possibility of mistaken identity?

          LG: You know what? You got spunk. MR: Well, Yes... LG: I hate spunk!

          by dinotrac on Thu Jul 17, 2014 at 01:48:27 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

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