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View Diary: BREAKING: Pro Russian Rebels Boasted About Downing Plane (459 comments)

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  •  What a pointless conflict (6+ / 0-)

    Everything I've read about this... I can't even figure out what these separatists are fighting for. They want to be "part of Russia", apparently. Why? so they can feel some kind of pride in their "homeland"? It's completely stupid.

    Freedom isn't free. That's why we pay taxes.

    by walk2live on Thu Jul 17, 2014 at 02:10:15 PM PDT

    •  Russia wants them to be part of the Russian (12+ / 0-)

      economic orbit, not part of the European economic orbit.

      If Russia cannot have the entire Ukraine be part of the Russian economic orbit (as it was headed before the people rose up and deposed the pro-Russian former Ukraine President months ago), Russia will take eastern Ukraine instead.

      In addition, having those two Ukraine provinces become part of Russia solidifies the Russian security of the now-annexed Crimea.  Without them, the Crimea is more exposed and more surrounded by hostile Ukraine territory.

      •  Crimea is a warm water port. (6+ / 0-)

        That is the main reason the Russian Navy "needs" it.

        As for the reason for the pro-Russian sentiments, maybe it's the same reason many Austrians wished to be part of Nazi Germany--better jobs and a higher standard of living. That is why the Wehrmacht faced next to no resistance when they took over.

        “You think You're frightening me with Your hell, don't You? You think Your hell is worse than mine.” --Dorothy Parker

        by Ice Blue on Thu Jul 17, 2014 at 02:50:47 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Ukraine is one of the largest Bread Baskets (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Vicky

        of the world. I know hedge fund that just bought up all the farmland there they could, largest land owners now, so there is a lot of reasons to want Ukraine

        (owner is Jewish who rebuilds synagogues etc all over Eastern Europe and Russia)

        "The poor can never be made to suffer enough." Jimmy Breslin

        by merrywidow on Thu Jul 17, 2014 at 05:26:51 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

          •  It's part of an economic CT (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Yonit

            Ukraine has so much valuable stuff that Western capitalists have a conspiracy to grab it all up with help of their governments.

            The moral/virtuous thing is thus to keep Ukraine in Russian hegemony, so that oligarchs with fealty to Moscow get all of Ukraine's resources.

            It's the usual thing, projection.  The West is always scheming to do what Russians would actually do.  The former is the worst possible thing that could happen, the latter the best outcome possible.

            •  Not a CT to me. Just a fact, they have the world's (0+ / 0-)

              best remaining farmland that was mostly bought by a NY hedge fund that I interviewed with, they bragged about this

              Ukraine is valuable land is all I meant to show

              "The poor can never be made to suffer enough." Jimmy Breslin

              by merrywidow on Fri Jul 18, 2014 at 06:19:14 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

      •  Also, logistics. (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        ER Doc


        To get from Russia to Crimea, you have to fly a Russian passenger jet, cross via ferry or cross a narrow land bridge to Kherson Oblast after travelling through Ukraine, a nation not known for its transportation infrastructure.  Ukraine has also switched off the water that used to flow from its territory to Crimea through a canal system built by the Ukrainian Socialist Soviet Republic.  

        If Moscow can control the territory between Kherson and Donetsk Oblasts, it gets land access to Crimea without dealing with Ukrainian customs.  It also gets access to any oil and gas that can be drilled from the Sea of Azov.

        Russia plans a bridge across the strait separating Rostov-on-Don and the Crimea, but that will take time and money to build in a nation where cost overruns are expected.  

        "Politics should be the part-time profession of every citizen who would protect the rights and privileges of free people and who would preserve what is good and fruitful in our national heritage." -- Lucille Ball

        by Yamaneko2 on Thu Jul 17, 2014 at 11:56:23 PM PDT

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    •  A lot of them want the USSR back (6+ / 0-)

      they aren't so much pro-Russia as anti-west, anti-EU, etc.

      We want to build cyber magicians!

      by VelvetElvis on Thu Jul 17, 2014 at 02:29:19 PM PDT

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      •  I'm guessing mostly stupid, drunk and unemployed (12+ / 0-)

        morons led by power-hungry sociopathic leaders who want to carve out their own special place in the sun. Same as it ever was, no different from ruthless nationalistic thugs in Sudan, the Congo, Central America or the Balkans.

        "Reagan's dead, and he was a lousy president" -- Keith Olbermann 4/22/09

        by kovie on Thu Jul 17, 2014 at 02:54:02 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Or that bunch of losers hanging around (6+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          kovie, oblomov, Timaeus, jan4insight, G2geek, Yonit

          the Bundy ranch. BTW what happened to them? Did the heat get to them yet?

          “You think You're frightening me with Your hell, don't You? You think Your hell is worse than mine.” --Dorothy Parker

          by Ice Blue on Thu Jul 17, 2014 at 03:20:51 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Yep (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Ice Blue, Timaeus

            Or the brownshirts the Nazis used to get into power. Or Bibi and his gang of far-right thuggish supporters. (Or Hamas, which hasn't been doing its people any favors, either.) It's so depressingly similar, and never seems to end. The cult of the stupid, angry and insecure male out to defend his pathetic manhood and "heritage" and exploited by sociopathic megalomaniacs lives on.

            "Reagan's dead, and he was a lousy president" -- Keith Olbermann 4/22/09

            by kovie on Thu Jul 17, 2014 at 03:30:57 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

        •  My favourite Donbass quote (11+ / 0-)
          "We hate the fascists in Kiev. Those euro-gay Jewish fascists"
        •  Actually, my stepson's girlfriend lives in Kharkiv (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          kovie

          thirty miles from the Russian border in eastern Ukraine, & her parents are nostalgic for the "good old days" of the Soviet Union. They are native Russian speakers; the daughter learned Ukrainian in school after the separation. They're not drunks; they're actually fairly successful capitalists. They own a couple of small grocery stores and a building supply store in a small city an hour south of Kharkiv, and have enough money to pay up-front for her law school tuition; she and my stepson will start at Hamline Law next month.
                I suspect their nostalgia for the Soviets came about because they were just starting their lives together when things came apart. Kharkiv is the second-largest city in Ukraine, and was they third-largest industrial center of the USSR, almost entirely devoted to military production, (tanks, planes, and big turbines.) When the USSR dissolved, the whole economy in the area collapsed. They have managed to do well for themselves, but it's been a struggle, and the standard of living for most people in the area is still not as good as it is across the border in Russia.

          -7.25, -6.26

          We are men of action; lies do not become us.

          by ER Doc on Fri Jul 18, 2014 at 02:22:52 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  One doesn't have to actually be drunk (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            ER Doc

            to think and behave like an angry drunk typically does, stupidly, irrationally, impulsively, with a huge outpouring of infantile anger and sense of wronged entitlement, lashing out at enemies real and imagined. These people came up in a horrifically malformed system that just happened to be good to them, and when it was taken away, rightfully and inevitably, their entitlements were too, and they're angry and confused over that, still, so they're lashing out at reformers and people different from them whom they feel have stolen what's rightfully theirs. They're like white southerners after the Civil War (and in many cases to the present day), simmering and seething in their anger and self-pity, like drunks. Or, like what Israel's settlers will be like if they're ever forced to leave. It's a classic symptom of political and economic dislocation, this rage.

            "Reagan's dead, and he was a lousy president" -- Keith Olbermann 4/22/09

            by kovie on Fri Jul 18, 2014 at 06:06:05 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

    •  Because violent nationalists are exactly the same (10+ / 0-)

      the world over in their ruthlessness, stupidity and insecurity, and so can't be expected to think, talk or act rationally or morally. In their "minds" the ends justify the means. Aside from fanatical religion and of course plain old greed, extreme nationalism is probably the most lethal force in the world today.

      There is no understanding or reasoning with stupidity or evil.

      "Reagan's dead, and he was a lousy president" -- Keith Olbermann 4/22/09

      by kovie on Thu Jul 17, 2014 at 02:52:27 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  genetic supremacy. (0+ / 0-)

        What's under the surface of nationalism is "my genes are better than your genes."

        What's under the surface of many forms of aggressive behavior is basically that.

        We got the future back. Uh-oh.

        by G2geek on Thu Jul 17, 2014 at 08:53:06 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

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