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View Diary: BREAKING: Pro Russian Rebels Boasted About Downing Plane (459 comments)

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  •  Which means it's the last we'll ever hear of this (6+ / 0-)

    again, in terms of solid evidence for what happened.

    Yet another coup for the NSA/CIA, who as we know are on top of everything.

    "Reagan's dead, and he was a lousy president" -- Keith Olbermann 4/22/09

    by kovie on Thu Jul 17, 2014 at 02:55:42 PM PDT

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    •  Actually... (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Satya1, Timaeus, Yonit, ER Doc

      This would seem a 3D intelligence disaster for the Russians at the moment. Anyone in the covert and tenuous chain-of-command connecting Putin with that infamous air defence asset shouldn't value their lives above a plugged nickel.

      •  Yeah, because there's been nothing but terrible (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Timaeus

        consequences for war criminals with power these past 50 years...

        I wish I could be as optimistic as you are, but history shows that power, not justice, gets its way. Who's going to take down Putin and his crew? How?

        I'm not saying I know how this should be dealt with, but every year the post-WWII equilibrium gets hacked away further by those who are willing if not eager to test and destroy it, for their own gain.

        "Reagan's dead, and he was a lousy president" -- Keith Olbermann 4/22/09

        by kovie on Thu Jul 17, 2014 at 08:15:53 PM PDT

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        •  Well... (4+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Satya1, Timaeus, Yonit, ER Doc

          I wasn't saying anything was going to happen to Putin; although this incident must send disruptive ripples through the oligarchy. He's just a bully; he's long on brass and short on finesse.

          His options are a lot narrower than they were yesterday, though, I'm guessing. We'll see. Germany had a bet on him I'll bet they're wishing they'd hedged.

          •  He's a canny and gutsy bully (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Timaeus

            who knows how to read and exploit weakness. Instead of going for direct blows, he's been taking glancing shots at the major powers to chip away at them bit by bit and see what they're made of. Each time he pushes the envelope even further. But instead of containing him, they just hold meetings and joint press conferences and express their "concern".

            He's just the new wannabe Bismarck. So far he's succeeding.

            "Reagan's dead, and he was a lousy president" -- Keith Olbermann 4/22/09

            by kovie on Thu Jul 17, 2014 at 08:29:11 PM PDT

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            •  He's so adept (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              kovie

              and cunning that he lost Russian hegemony of northern/western Ukraine on February 20/21 and hegemony over half of the rest during March, April, and May.  Now he's down to Crimea and probably less than 10% of Ukraine's mainland land area and population.  It's just one damn victory after another.

              Sure, he's good at maximizing those advantages available to him, exploiting weakness, consolidating gains.  But the same was true of the Confederacy in the Civil War- lots of tactical victories, but the strategic defeats added up after a while.

              Nobody in the West much cares whether Putin gets some of eastern Ukraine for Russia or not.  Crimea doesn't matter that much either.  Northern/western Ukraine, from Lvov to Kiev, matters- and that's lost to him.  Winning Odessa and other southern parts matters- to keep some coherence of economic infrastructure and a port, to isolate Transnistria.  And to have a significant size ethnic Russian population in Ukraine which splinters ethnic Russian nationalism and irredentism- which vocally rejects Putinism, rejects rule by Moscow, rejects much of the conservative social order and imperialism of Russia, and is at least somewhat open to EU membership and citizenship.

              In Ukraine it seems down to concrete particulars now.  Putin's next really big argument with The West comes when there is a successful pro-EU uprising in Belarus.  (There's fun to be had in disagreements involving Syria, Iran, Afghanistan, and the Caucasus, in the meantime of course.)  He can get a pound of flesh here, another there, out of EU and American politicians and none of it will matter on the day the EU, and maybe NATO, get invited into Minsk.

              •  When you grew up hearing about (0+ / 0-)

                how Hitler and the Nazis slowly came to power politically, and then how Nazi Germany slowly grew in power militarily, taking advantage of their enemies' weaknesses, stupidity and cowardice, I can't help but get nervous when I look at what Putin's doing, even if a closer analysis leaves some who are more familiar with this situation more sanguine. Maybe it's a Jewish thing. Can you blame us, especially seeing as how Putin's exploited Russian anti-semitism.

                "Reagan's dead, and he was a lousy president" -- Keith Olbermann 4/22/09

                by kovie on Fri Jul 18, 2014 at 06:18:56 AM PDT

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    •  that's nearly HR-able for CT. (0+ / 0-)

      "Yet another coup for the NSA/CIA, who as we know are on top of everything."

      Right, and Cheney flew the planes into the buildings from his secret bunker, and Obama's a frontman for the Lizard People.

      We got the future back. Uh-oh.

      by G2geek on Thu Jul 17, 2014 at 08:56:56 PM PDT

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      •  Accusing the NSA/CIA of being incompetent (0+ / 0-)

        is HRable? What planet are you living on? They EXCEL at being incompetent. Or did you read something into that remark that wasn't intended? I never said or implied that they did this or had anything to do with it. Rather, the opposite, that they yet again failed at their primary mission, finding out what's going on in the world that might concern the US, which would mean that they couldn't possibly have had anything to do with this. Total misread.

        "Reagan's dead, and he was a lousy president" -- Keith Olbermann 4/22/09

        by kovie on Thu Jul 17, 2014 at 09:41:26 PM PDT

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        •  this: (0+ / 0-)

          Quote:

            Which means it's the last we'll ever hear of this (6+ / 0-)

          again, in terms of solid evidence for what happened.

          Yet another coup for the NSA/CIA, who as we know are on top of everything.

          End quote.

          Sounds an awfully lot like you're accusing NSA & CIA of being in on some kind of cover-up.  "Coup" means an extralegal exercise of power over an elected government and "on top of everything" implies likewise.  

          I didn't see a snark tag unless you managed to make the text of it white in which case it doesn't show against the white background.

          We got the future back. Uh-oh.

          by G2geek on Fri Jul 18, 2014 at 01:51:35 AM PDT

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          •  No snark tag needed because as I just wrote (0+ / 0-)

            I was NOT accusing it of a coverup, but of not knowing about it in the first place, at least until it was too late. If they were competent at what they do, they'd have known that a civilian passenger plane was flying over a combat zone and that there were SAMs there, so they could warn the airline or plane to get the fuck out before it was too late. They're supposed to KNOW these things. But since they're too busy spying on us, they've blown it again.

            Btw, "coup" also means successful mission or job, and "on top of everything" also means the same thing as "They've got this covered", as in they're competent on this. Do you have even a passing understanding of colloquial English? The only CT I see here is the one in your head.

            "Reagan's dead, and he was a lousy president" -- Keith Olbermann 4/22/09

            by kovie on Fri Jul 18, 2014 at 05:57:06 AM PDT

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          •  Also, you do realize that I was responding (0+ / 0-)

            to a comment that claimed that the black box was taken to Russia, not the US, no? How would the NSA or CIA have their hands on it if Putin already had it?

            Give it a rest. You're woefully misreading a throwaway comment.

            "Reagan's dead, and he was a lousy president" -- Keith Olbermann 4/22/09

            by kovie on Fri Jul 18, 2014 at 05:58:44 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

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