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View Diary: Don't Rush to Judgement, Ray McGovern Warns (79 comments)

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  •  I'm sorry to say this (11+ / 0-)

    But after reading the whole thing, I find it being just a more "polite" article that's trumpeting the same talking points that's coming from the Russian side at this time.

    The last "pointer" you quoted from the article is a pretty dead-on giveaway:

    "But it is well known that Ukraine has received weapons and military training from the west-NATO-US alliance."

    Yeah, Ukraine has received so much weapons and military training from west-NATO-US alliance that they're using those brand new shiny soviet-era weaponry.

    BS propaganda is BS propaganda, and saying it more politely still doesn't make it true.

    •  I thank you for sharing your opinion... (4+ / 0-)

      Obviously I don't agree.  I could look up some links for this information, but I suspect it would be a waste of time as you would only say  the 'sources' are bad and propaganda.  But ask if you feel you can give them a fair look.

      "Our duty is to the Constitution, not to the criminals in Washington." Paul Craig Roberts

      by dharmasyd on Fri Jul 18, 2014 at 04:02:22 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  What the Russians should have done (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Mark Lippman, Spit

        was to immediately seal the crash site with Russian troops, and guaranteed the safety of independent professionals at the site. Russia should have invited the world's experts on plane crashes, which didn't need to include the US, to the site to begin the detailed work of preserving evidence, identifying the remains of the people who were killed, and the assist in the search for the people responsible for the decision to fire the missile. If they had done that, the civilized world would have been impressed.

        "let's talk about that" uid 92953

        by VClib on Fri Jul 18, 2014 at 07:05:08 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  You mean this crew isn't impressive? (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          cotterperson, dharmasyd
          That's no less than the self-declared Donetsk People's Republic's Prime Minister in the middle.
        •  Re: What the Russians should have done (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          dharmasyd, protectspice, Sandino

          "...was to immediately seal the crash site with Russian troops, and guaranteed the safety of independent professionals at the site."

          The crash site is in a disputed area of a war zone between the government of Ukraine and the separatist insurgents.  Regardless of what support Russia may be giving to the separatists, they have not officially invaded the area.  Putting Russian troops at the crash site would immediately change that and would have international repercussions.

          •  I don't think so (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            dharmasyd

            If the Russians had followed my proposal I think the international community would have been supportive. They could have agreed to leave as soon as an independent international force was available to replace them. The Russians were the only party who could have sealed the crash site and preserved the evidence. That was just the reality on the ground, and everyone recognizes that.

            "let's talk about that" uid 92953

            by VClib on Fri Jul 18, 2014 at 08:36:29 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  The 'International Community' i.e. NATO (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              dharmasyd

              would have either been supported the Russian invasion of a neighbor, or, much more likely, immediately used this as proof of Russian involvement in the attack, and called it an invasion. It would have completed the pretext and given the neocon war machine carte blanche.

              •  I don't agree (0+ / 0-)

                If Putin had called President Obama and the key NATO Prime Ministers they could have worked out a deal in a day to have the Russians secure the site. It would have required the Russians to be committed to finding those responsible for firing the rockets and independent, international, airplane accident experts to accompany the first Russian troops to the crash site.

                It would have been viewed as an invasion only if it was an invasion. If Russia was clearly committed to a transparent search for the truth it would have been supported by rest of the world.

                What we have now is Russia supporting a path where the truth will likely never be known.

                "let's talk about that" uid 92953

                by VClib on Sat Jul 19, 2014 at 06:00:35 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  So the Russians would have known (0+ / 0-)

                  that the site would need to be protected in advance, and the Ukraine gov't and all its soldiers would have been peaceful about the influx of Russian troops because Obama and NATO really do control them, or because they are just so concerned that the exact truth of the incident is known lest it increase international support for them?

                  i find this scenario, whichever you choose, highly implausible.

              •  Thanks for your comments... (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Sandino

                ...and Recs, Sandino.  I can see we're on the same wave length thinking about this.  It has been obvious from the start (the Maidan demonstrations in Fall of 2013, or even back to the dissolution of the Soviet Union in 1990) that the U.S. has acted in ways designed to destroy Russia so it would never have the power to be a "threat" again.  

                I can't make a judgement on Russia.  but I know it looks very clear, and this is painful for me to say,  that the U.S., my country, has not acted in good faith.  

                It is painful enough to see through the lies and deceptions, to see how my country, which I have loved, has deviated from the promise inherent in its founding.  This hurts me much more than any flame wars, pie fights or name calling directed at me.

                Calling me a Commie, Pinko, disloyal, anti-American, or self hating American (this reference is intentional) can never hurt as badly as it hurts to have my eyes opened to very disturbing things that I see about my own country.

                But the future, nay, the very survival of the human species (and the many species whose fates depend on us), rests on our ability to resolve our disagreements in ways other than war, killing, brutality, and demonizing.

                We are involved in a great evolutionary process.  Our technology has evolved to the point where we now have, in our small hands, the power and energy which were once attributed only to Gods.  We must evolve our consciousness to a more god-like level in order to manage these powers.

                No one wins a nuclear war.  
                It is Death Writ Large Across the Planet.
                We will evolve and grow up, or we will die.

                          ~~~just my humble opinion~~~

                "Our duty is to the Constitution, not to the criminals in Washington." Paul Craig Roberts

                by dharmasyd on Sat Jul 19, 2014 at 02:00:13 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

        •  The Russians should have invaded Ukraine? (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          dharmasyd

          I guess that's what the war machine would have liked. Imagine the headlines.  In reality, that is a ridiculous suggestion.

          •  I was never suggesting that Russia invade (0+ / 0-)

            without letting the world know through diplomatic channels, and the press, exactly what they were doing, on a limited basis, for a short time, to preserve the crash site and handling the bodies of the victims.

            The Russians were the only ones who could have ever sealed the crash site, and started a transparent process to find the facts and the individuals who shot down MH17. It could have been quickly done in a manner that NATO would have embraced.

            "let's talk about that" uid 92953

            by VClib on Sat Jul 19, 2014 at 06:08:11 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Is Ukraine part of NATO now? (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              dharmasyd

              have you forgotten the army that is targeting its own citizens in the region, the ostensible cause for the extreme fear the beleaguered insurgents feel about giving access to outsiders? I tend to hope you are overestimating the power of Obama/NATO over the Ukrainian regime, as the alternative really points much stronger US involvement in the coup that has been generally acknowledged.

        •  VClib: Except that the crash site is not on (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Sandino

          Russian territory. Your suggestion would require an overt Russian invasion of Ukraine.

          •  I was never suggesting that they do it without (0+ / 0-)

            discussing it with NATO and Ukraine. However, only the Russians ever had the ability to secure the crash site. They were our only hope although I am sure everyone would have been suspicious of their motives. However, if they had taken international crash site inspectors with them from the start, I think it could have worked.

            We are now on a path where the truth will likely never be known, those responsible for the missile strike will never be brought to justice, and the bodies of the victims will be violated.

            "let's talk about that" uid 92953

            by VClib on Sat Jul 19, 2014 at 08:10:28 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

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