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View Diary: How easy it is to criticize Israel (148 comments)

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  •  you just... (0+ / 0-)

    spelled out one of the way that Israel got the short stick. Swap the Palestinians and the Basques, and try to convince me that Spain wouldn't be in Israel's boat right now.

    "It's almost as if we're watching Mitt Romney on Safari in his own country." -- Jonathan Capeheart

    by JackND on Sun Jul 20, 2014 at 01:29:52 PM PDT

    [ Parent ]

    •  Israel is founded on the idea that their group (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      corvo, limpidglass

      Gets its own state. How is the idea that Palestinians also get their own state giving Israel the short stick? It's hypocrisy at its finest to suggest that it's too much for Israel to allow another group-specific state to exist.

      •  Let's change (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        sawdoctor

        a couple words in your comment.

         It's hypocrisy at its finest to suggest that it's too much for Spain to allow another group-specific state to exist.

         It's hypocrisy at its finest to suggest that it's too much for Turkey to allow another group-specific state to exist.

         It's hypocrisy at its finest to suggest that it's too much for Russia to allow another group-specific state to exist.

         It's hypocrisy at its finest to suggest that it's too much for China to allow another group-specific state to exist.

         It's hypocrisy at its finest to suggest that it's too much for Azerbaijan to allow another group-specific state to exist.

        "It's almost as if we're watching Mitt Romney on Safari in his own country." -- Jonathan Capeheart

        by JackND on Sun Jul 20, 2014 at 01:43:50 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Are you even trying? (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          corvo

          "Lets chance the entire subject of your statements and see if theyre still relevant." Is what you just said. Are you advocating for a single state solution? Because if you don't like two state then you either want Palestinians to be part of Israel, this ending it's existence as a Jewish state, or you want Palestinians to be forced out of their homes and sent to other countries because Israel wants their land. Both are pretty god-awful ideas.

          •  being... (0+ / 0-)

            a Jewish State means every citizen has to be Jewish? I suspect Israel would allow citizens of any religion if they are peaceful. That's how it should have been all along.

            And the phrasing you chose to use "because Israel wants their land". This is the land that was mandated to the Jewish Palestinian state when Jordan was created as the Arab Palestinian state.

            "It's almost as if we're watching Mitt Romney on Safari in his own country." -- Jonathan Capeheart

            by JackND on Sun Jul 20, 2014 at 02:10:47 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  umm, a couple of years ago (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              maregug

              47% of Israelis came out in favor of "transfering" the Israeli Arab population out of Israel.  

              And your last sentence, as the UN Partition Plan of 1947 amply demonstrates, is objectively false.

              Dogs from the street can have all the desirable qualities that one could want from pet dogs. Most adopted stray dogs are usually humble and exceptionally faithful to their owners as if they are grateful for this kindness. -- H.M. Bhumibol Adulyadej

              by corvo on Sun Jul 20, 2014 at 02:24:07 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  that's (0+ / 0-)

                what the United States did with the Native Americans...again, and again, and again, and again, and again.

                And in Soviet Russia, Stalin moved ethnic groups around constantly, essentially shuffling the Soviet population like a deck of cards. Today, a huge share of Estonia and Latvia's populations are Russian, which with Russia's new aggressiveness is rather terrifying for them. But they they can't just uplift them like FDR did with the Japanese-Americans, they have to cope with it. Same deal in Israel. The Jews are there, they aren't going anywhere. Any Arabs in Israel that can't accept that fact without resorting to violence probably should move.

                And your UN Partition Plan demonstrates that already in 1947, the Arabs already were getting not only all of transjordan but also some of cisjordan. So I'm not seeing how I was wrong about that.

                "It's almost as if we're watching Mitt Romney on Safari in his own country." -- Jonathan Capeheart

                by JackND on Sun Jul 20, 2014 at 02:32:37 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  I could have sworn (0+ / 0-)

                  that Israeli Arabs -- you know, Palestinian citizens of Israel -- have a right to live in the country in which they are citizens.  How often do they "resort to violence" so that they "probably should move"?

                  What "my" UN Partition Plan demonstrates is that the UN was already compromising the principle of national self-determination -- in Israel's favor.  But it just wasn't enough, was it?

                  Dogs from the street can have all the desirable qualities that one could want from pet dogs. Most adopted stray dogs are usually humble and exceptionally faithful to their owners as if they are grateful for this kindness. -- H.M. Bhumibol Adulyadej

                  by corvo on Sun Jul 20, 2014 at 02:35:45 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  they... (0+ / 0-)

                    have the right to live as citizens of Israel if that's what they want to be, and the government has the right to maintain order among the people who choose to be citizens.

                    Is that not basic?

                    "It's almost as if we're watching Mitt Romney on Safari in his own country." -- Jonathan Capeheart

                    by JackND on Sun Jul 20, 2014 at 02:39:59 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  It is neither usual nor right for governments (0+ / 0-)

                      to punish lawbreaking citizens by removing them from the country.

                      Dogs from the street can have all the desirable qualities that one could want from pet dogs. Most adopted stray dogs are usually humble and exceptionally faithful to their owners as if they are grateful for this kindness. -- H.M. Bhumibol Adulyadej

                      by corvo on Sun Jul 20, 2014 at 02:41:34 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  perhaps... (0+ / 0-)

                        but do they self identify as "Israeli"?

                        "It's almost as if we're watching Mitt Romney on Safari in his own country." -- Jonathan Capeheart

                        by JackND on Sun Jul 20, 2014 at 02:44:14 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  Explain to me how that matters. n/t (0+ / 0-)

                          Dogs from the street can have all the desirable qualities that one could want from pet dogs. Most adopted stray dogs are usually humble and exceptionally faithful to their owners as if they are grateful for this kindness. -- H.M. Bhumibol Adulyadej

                          by corvo on Sun Jul 20, 2014 at 02:44:40 PM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  do they want to... (0+ / 0-)

                            be citizens.

                            Treatment as citizens would seem to have that prerequisite.

                            "It's almost as if we're watching Mitt Romney on Safari in his own country." -- Jonathan Capeheart

                            by JackND on Sun Jul 20, 2014 at 02:45:45 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Show me where in international law (0+ / 0-)

                            citizenship in the country of one's birth is contingent on the principle of "wanting to be a citizen."

                            Dogs from the street can have all the desirable qualities that one could want from pet dogs. Most adopted stray dogs are usually humble and exceptionally faithful to their owners as if they are grateful for this kindness. -- H.M. Bhumibol Adulyadej

                            by corvo on Sun Jul 20, 2014 at 02:47:04 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  well, (0+ / 0-)

                            what is international law?

                            More locally though, a person who doesn't want to be a citizen of a country isn't likely to feel much obligation to obey the laws of the country in question.

                            "It's almost as if we're watching Mitt Romney on Safari in his own country." -- Jonathan Capeheart

                            by JackND on Sun Jul 20, 2014 at 02:48:48 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Your initial question barely merits (0+ / 0-)

                            a facepalm, and your second paragraph is, well, ridiculous.  Can you point to any study anywhere demonstrating that people unhappy with their citizenship are more likely to break the laws of their country?  Which laws, anyway? I guess the long line of corrupt Israeli politicians demonstrates their hatred of their citizenship, or does that apply only to Arabs?

                            Stop making s*it up off the cuff.  It really isn't making you look good.

                            Dogs from the street can have all the desirable qualities that one could want from pet dogs. Most adopted stray dogs are usually humble and exceptionally faithful to their owners as if they are grateful for this kindness. -- H.M. Bhumibol Adulyadej

                            by corvo on Sun Jul 20, 2014 at 02:51:52 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  it... (0+ / 0-)

                            isn't ridiculous at all. What is the obligation to obey the laws of a country that you feel is your enemy?

                            "It's almost as if we're watching Mitt Romney on Safari in his own country." -- Jonathan Capeheart

                            by JackND on Sun Jul 20, 2014 at 02:55:02 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Oh, so now we've move the goalpost to (0+ / 0-)

                            "enemy," and you're still engaging in some pretty embarrassing armchair psychology.

                            Lots of Americans aren't happy with America either, and somehow manage to obey its laws.

                            Exactly what crimes against the State of Israel are these Arabs really or potentially guilty of committing?

                            Dogs from the street can have all the desirable qualities that one could want from pet dogs. Most adopted stray dogs are usually humble and exceptionally faithful to their owners as if they are grateful for this kindness. -- H.M. Bhumibol Adulyadej

                            by corvo on Sun Jul 20, 2014 at 02:57:16 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                •  also, (0+ / 0-)

                  if I'm not mistaken, your first two paragraphs reduce to "other folks have committed ethnic cleansing, population transfers, and the occasional genocide, so what?"

                  Please clarify. :-))

                  Dogs from the street can have all the desirable qualities that one could want from pet dogs. Most adopted stray dogs are usually humble and exceptionally faithful to their owners as if they are grateful for this kindness. -- H.M. Bhumibol Adulyadej

                  by corvo on Sun Jul 20, 2014 at 02:36:41 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  it means... (0+ / 0-)

                    the status quo is what it is.

                    Native Americans aren't going to get their lands in their entirety back.

                    The people Stalin shuffled around aren't going to move back to their pre-Stalin homes.

                    The Jews aren't going to jump into the Mediterranean Sea.

                    What was hard to get about that? :)

                    "It's almost as if we're watching Mitt Romney on Safari in his own country." -- Jonathan Capeheart

                    by JackND on Sun Jul 20, 2014 at 02:42:45 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  I personally have no desire to have (2+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      mosesfreeman, dallasdunlap

                      Israeli Jews "jump into the Mediterranean Sea."

                      I do wish they would stop stealing Palestinian land, however.

                      YMMV.

                      Dogs from the street can have all the desirable qualities that one could want from pet dogs. Most adopted stray dogs are usually humble and exceptionally faithful to their owners as if they are grateful for this kindness. -- H.M. Bhumibol Adulyadej

                      by corvo on Sun Jul 20, 2014 at 02:44:13 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

            •  The 1948 deal gave the West Bank to Jordan. (0+ / 0-)

              This series of maps shows how Israel has taken land far in excess of what was agreed to in 1948. http://images.sodahead.com/...

      •  Yes, to say nothing of the UN resolution that is (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        maregug

        the foundation of the state of Israel under international law, WHICH also provided for a Palestinian state other than Jordan.

        Their real God is money-- Jesus just drives the armored car, and his hat is made in China. © 2009 All Rights Reserved

        by oblomov on Sun Jul 20, 2014 at 02:39:33 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

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