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View Diary: Creationist Ken Ham: Aliens are going to hell so just stop looking for them (309 comments)

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  •  Even if you want to take a divine-authorship view (4+ / 0-)

    there is no reasonable reading of Genesis that suggests that Adam's sin affects any living beings besides his descendants, on this planet or any other.  Dude hasn't read the book.

    •  dude's a grifter. (4+ / 0-)

      wonder how rich he is.

      And how he's gonna get his camel through that needle.


      "I want to die in my sleep like my grandfather ....... Not screaming and yelling like the passengers in his car ..." - Emo Philips

      by AlyoshaKaramazov on Mon Jul 21, 2014 at 12:58:57 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  It comes from the Problem of Evil. (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      FiredUpInCA

      If there is an all-knowing god, who is good, and all-powerful, why do bad things happen?

      The most common answer to this is not to answer it.

      Instead, there's this thing called free will.  Supposedly free will equates to Original Sin, and is what short-circuits the universe so that things like horrendous mutations, natural disasters and so forth, can occur to folks that did not deserve such a fate.

      God didn't cause those things, man did by defying god and choosing to have free will.  (Nevermind how someone without free will can choose to have free will.)  Common interpretations depict Heaven as a place where one has no free will because it and sin are the same thing.

      It's not so much in the text as implied by the text, together with things piled onto the belief system later.

      •  Even taking that into account (0+ / 0-)

        that doesn't explain how non-human but sentient beings, unrelated to Adam, could be affected by Adam's sin.

        Who says aliens have sin or free will?

        •  A quick introduction to Theology 101: (0+ / 0-)

          When you have no direct answer, make shit up.

          Infer whatever you desire from the foundational assumptions, and build the best castle you can on the sand of the faith in question.

          It doesn't matter how convoluted it is, after a few generations have passed, people will forget how torturous the justification was and regard it as solidly as any other part of the theology.  Any sufficiently creative person can do this.

          Again, as far as I understand how this works, natural disasters (and horrible genetic mutations!) exist because of sin.  Since the proximate cause of such things are the fundamental forces of the universe, this means the fundamental forces of the universe were changed to their current nature by sin.

          The universe came into existence.  Then humans were made.  Then humans engaged in sin.  Then the fundamental nature of reality changed as a result.

          At this point, sin's impact on potential aliens depends on whether or not one believes in the consistency of physical laws throughout the universe.  Usually, this is regarded to be a fair assumption to make, that say, chemistry works the same a billion light years away as it works on Earth.  But we're discussing religion here.  We can assume anything we want if it justifies what we want it to.

          Suppose we assert the physical laws are not guaranteed to be the same everywhere in the universe.  We have no reason to think this (beyond some limited, very constrained concepts of this in theoretical physics).  Maybe an alien race who never sinned would thus not be subjected to the same broken physics we were.  So their local physics are different.  They have no natural disasters on their world.

          One obvious consequence of this is a follows.  If we met these aliens, our broken physics would travel with us and magically ruin their day.  But ridiculous scenarios like that are standard fare for theology.  It's the sci-fi of the religious world, most people just don't find it that interesting.

          Or the aliens could have engaged in sin as well, and broken their physical laws just as we did in the same way or potentially a different way.  Maybe the breaking of the universe is a local phenomenon, and not universal.  If you like, throw in some references to non-local physics, symmetry breaking and quantum mechanics, to impress the laymen.

          Honestly, when I think of things like this, I begin to wonder why there isn't more sci-fi material out there with exactly this kind of theological background to it.  I think it could be potentially interesting from a story telling angle.  But I suspect the only people who would be any good at an actual story in this type of setting would probably be non-believers.

          To give a more direct answer to your question about whether aliens have sin or free will, I don't think most believers accept the idea that there might be human-like aliens out there because to do so would raise all sorts of questions that would need answering, not least among them this one.

          My answer posits that aliens without sin could exist.  But it also requires that one asserts that the physical laws of the universe are not the same everywhere.  And that's a notion that is pretty much well outside the mainstream, not to mention unscientific.

    •  Dude hasn't read the book. (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Batya the Toon, dewolf99

      He hasn't even read the Cliff Notes.

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