Skip to main content

View Diary: 'Serious' Question about the Hobby Lobby ruling: Can I stop paying my student loans? (200 comments)

Comment Preferences

  •  Too late, I think (7+ / 0-)

    You accepted the terms of the loan already. Hard to come back around and plea sincere religious conviction objecting to usury, or whatever, after the fact. And as an individual you've always had the right not to act against your religious convictions - see "conscientious objectors" as an example.

    “Texas is a so-called red state, but you’ve got 10 million Democrats here in Texas. And …, there are a whole lot of people here in Texas who need us, and who need us to fight for them.” President Obama

    by Catte Nappe on Mon Jul 21, 2014 at 03:10:31 PM PDT

    •  That doesn't take into account the fact that (17+ / 0-)

      people's religious views can change.

      I could have had an epiphany. The court did say that it wasn't its job to question whether the religious views in question were correct or reasonable.

      An Fhirinn an aghaidh an t'Saoghail.

      by OllieGarkey on Mon Jul 21, 2014 at 03:20:11 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Hobby Lobby paid for contraception for YEARS. (17+ / 0-)

      Several states Hobby Lobby has stores in had contraception mandates. It was only after the ACA passed that they suddenly decided they were religious.

      "You can't fix stupid" --Ron White -6.00, -5.18

      by zenbassoon on Mon Jul 21, 2014 at 03:23:36 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  They were recruited by a "Christian" (6+ / 0-)

        law center...Thomas More?

        It wasn't ...."litigate " unto Caesar, right?

        "The poor can never be made to suffer enough." Jimmy Breslin

        by merrywidow on Mon Jul 21, 2014 at 03:52:13 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  They've always been super religious (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        OrganicChemist, JuliathePoet

        So they didn't just "decide" to be. And is there evidence that in the past they paid for the handful of contraceptive types they objected to in their case?

        “Texas is a so-called red state, but you’ve got 10 million Democrats here in Texas. And …, there are a whole lot of people here in Texas who need us, and who need us to fight for them.” President Obama

        by Catte Nappe on Mon Jul 21, 2014 at 04:26:36 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  "And is there evidence that in the past they paid (7+ / 0-)

          for the handful of contraceptive types they objected to in their case?"

          They've never denied it.

          Not to mention the fact that their objection about the BC in question it that it acts as an abortifacient.  That has been shown to be scientifically incorrect.

          Bottom line, this case was about the the religious rights not of individuals, but of a corporation --  yes, we are now giving religious rights to fictitious legal entitles -- and the facts at the heart of the case were incorrect.  This ruling is would be laughable if its effects weren't so far-reaching and terrible.

          •  No, it wasn't. The Hobby Lobby decision was rea... (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            AlphaLop

            No, it wasn't. The Hobby Lobby decision was really about expanding the rights of the wealthy, ruling class and subordinating the rights of the "common" people. It stands for the basic proposition that wherever rights afforded by separate federal laws are in (arguable) opposition, the right claimed by or inuring to the rich business-owner trumps the competing right.

        •  Well, they sure don't mind investing in it (6+ / 0-)

          Their retirement plans and company investments included (and I think still do?) stock in the companies that make the very drugs they say they are religiously opposed to.

          Mind, science says none of the drugs they complain about actually causes abortions, but the Supreme Court just showed that "sincerely held belief" in what something "does" trumps actual reality.

          (Not to mention most of the crap they sell comes from China, world leader in actual abortions.)

          On the whole, I prefer not to be lectured on patriotism by those who keep offshore maildrops in order to avoid paying their taxes. - Molly Ivins

          by Lashe on Tue Jul 22, 2014 at 02:58:32 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  I just had to have this discussion--- (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            dcnblues, Lashe

            I just had to have this discussion with one of my grown kids,

            Somehow I feel as if I have deeply FAILED when I need to have that talk---and because the "Moms Groups" online are all about this stuff--and ANTI FREE CHOICE---somehow she bought into it.  

            She seems to feel that the "only four" drugs are "not so bad"---had to explain WHY it is not ONLY those drugs--and the whole 401(k) investment deal---

            And had to explain the FURTHER consequences of this ruling.

            And---worse---I don't think I really got THRU to her.  

            I suspect she is somewhat ashamed of her old hippie mother who looks for protestors at Hobby Lobby and mimic-ed shooting a HL truck we saw on the hiway the other last day----

            Proud to be an old hippie biker chick who would still walk a picket line in support of what I believe in----

          •  I wonder if... (0+ / 0-)

            ....my sincere, closely held belief is that science is correct matters at all to the Roberts Court.

      •  Hobby Lobby Wasn't Fighting Against Birth Control (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Catte Nappe

        I understand they still provide 16 different types in their Insurance Plan.  They were objecting to 4 types which they felt were causing abortions not preventing pregnancies.

        Did they provide these 4 types in the "several" states previously?

        •  Yes. That's the point. (4+ / 0-)

          "You can't fix stupid" --Ron White -6.00, -5.18

          by zenbassoon on Mon Jul 21, 2014 at 04:59:27 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

            •  Look, I'm religious, and I'm trying to satirically (10+ / 0-)

              point out that this ranks up there as one of the dumbest decisions in supreme court history.

              A "Sincerely held religious belief" being the basis for the applicability of the law means that religious folks get to make up whatever they want to make up, and get a pass for it.

              And that's wrong.

              This is establishment of religion.

              Atheists have sincerely held beliefs. They can have sincerely held beliefs regarding pacifism, or politics, or law.

              They can even believe silly things if they want to, because that's their right.

              But the fact is that atheists don't get protection for their sincerely held beliefs because they don't attach them to some religious ideology.

              I'm trying to make the point that "Sincerely Held Religious Belief" is not something we need to be enshrining in law.

              And I say that as someone with sincerely held religious beliefs. None of which I've actually stated in this post which couldn't be more tounge-in-cheek without me getting a truly horrifying piercing which would allow me to literally push my tongue through my cheek.

              (Yes, that exists.)

              An Fhirinn an aghaidh an t'Saoghail.

              by OllieGarkey on Mon Jul 21, 2014 at 06:01:20 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  Whoops! Disregard this. (0+ / 0-)

              I thought this was a reply to this post.

              Sorry. Ignore me.

              An Fhirinn an aghaidh an t'Saoghail.

              by OllieGarkey on Mon Jul 21, 2014 at 06:02:42 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  The point is--- (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              AlphaLop, dcnblues, enufenuf

              The point IS that HL did indeed HAVE all of these drugs IN it's former insurance plan.  And NEVER made a peep about them until some Right Wing Religious Law establishment CAME TO THEM with the proposal that THEY should be the TEST case on these.

              And the hypocricy of this company is::::  Their RETIREMENT PLAN is invested in the VERY SAME companies that MAKE these SAME drugs.

              And----Their STOCK IN TRADE---the items they SELL in their stores--are almost ALL made in CHINA where forced birth control and FORCED abortions ARE A STATE SPONSORED DECISION.

              So if they are so all fired up about the fate of "Fetal Rights"---why are they NOT refusing to buy their crap from CHINA????

              Why have they NOT divested their interest in the drug makers?

              Why?  You ask?

              PROFIT

              GREED

              And a really strong dose of "Do as I SAY not as I DO"

        •  I don't think that is correct (5+ / 0-)

          They carefully made a framing of arguments but had a much, much, much broader agenda.

          If one reads the Catholic opinion, they carefully point out that no longer question the veracity of the beliefs or what they apply to.

          They took away the choice of the employee and completely empowered any Catholic employer regarding any sort of contraceptives, birth control or abortion.

          They made a BULLSHIT argument that it was limited to a few things.  This was IMO just a ploy to fool dumb people   Because the five male Catholics signed on to a very broadly worded opinion which they expanded the very next day to allow a Catholic affiliated school and church to tell the IRS how the IRS can create a form.  That's Wheaton College.  

          Its a question of control and the Catholics have now got it.  If Catholics are boss, they get to tell their employees what to do as far as "morality" of male female relations.

          “Everyone is ignorant, only on different subjects.” ― Will Rogers

          by MugWumpBlues on Mon Jul 21, 2014 at 10:08:25 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  But, two days after this ruling was handed (5+ / 0-)

          down, SCOTUS "clarified" it to say it covered all forms of birth control, not just the specific ones Hobby Lobby objected to.  The current SCOTUS is like a Catholic bishop's wet dream.

        •  The answer to the question below: Yep they did. (0+ / 0-)
          I understand they still provide 16 different types in their Insurance Plan.  They were objecting to 4 types which they felt were causing abortions not preventing pregnancies.

          Did they provide these 4 types in the "several" states previously?

          And, what's more: prior to their decision to refuse to allow these types, they had held stocks in exactly these forms of birth control.  They had no problem with them before Obamacare came along.  
          The way I understand it, in fact, they still hold those stocks.  There's a word for what they're doing.  It's called 'hypocrisy.'

          Now, they say they "believe" these forms of birth control cause abortions even though people who actually know such things say they do not do so - but hey, as we all know, religious beliefs trump facts these days.

          The same people who say, "Oh noes!  We mustn't have Sharia Law in this country!" are galloping off in all directions to establish exactly that.  Just like in Afghanistan, certain people's religious beliefs dictate how other people must live.

          Hypocrisy in the name of one god or another is rampant in this country these days.
          Go figure.

          The price of apathy is to be ruled by evil men - - Plato . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . We must be the change we wish to see in the world - - Mohandas Gandhi

          by twocrows1023 on Thu Jul 24, 2014 at 03:22:29 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  The Decision Just Came Down, S/He Couldn't Have (9+ / 0-)

      known about it when signing the loan. Religion ranks above factuality says the Court so it's certainly got a very privileged station.

      We are called to speak for the weak, for the voiceless, for victims of our nation and for those it calls enemy.... --ML King "Beyond Vietnam"

      by Gooserock on Mon Jul 21, 2014 at 03:47:11 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  The decision came down for corporations (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        allie4fairness

        The rights have long since been available to individuals.

        “Texas is a so-called red state, but you’ve got 10 million Democrats here in Texas. And …, there are a whole lot of people here in Texas who need us, and who need us to fight for them.” President Obama

        by Catte Nappe on Mon Jul 21, 2014 at 04:27:26 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  Hobby Lobby (4+ / 0-)

      invests in companies that manufacture the birth control they supposedly have a moral objection to, and they buy most of their merchandise from state-run companies in a country whose government has performed forced abortions.  I wouldn't question the sincerity of this diarist's beliefs based upon actions, logic or reason.  We'll just legally stipulate that reality and consistency don't count.  SCOTUS embraces that.

    •  Too late? But prior to the ACA (8+ / 0-)

      Hobby Lobby had always paid for all approved forms of birth control in the group policy covering their employees.

      If Hobby Lobby can come up with this lawsuit just because of the ACA, than I would think OllieGarkey is equally justified in a usury lawsuit just because of the Hobby Lobby case.

    •  Maybe not (11+ / 0-)

      I'm not so sure.  How many Christians are taught that usury is sinful?  I never was...but now that I'm aware, I feel like I was coerced into signing those loan agreements without being given full disclosure that God regards it as sinful.  I want to be a good Christian, just like Hobby Lobby.  I don't want to do anything that might affect my immortal soul.  I don't want to feel like I've been forced to engage in sinful behavior.  This case might actually have merit, and the Supreme Court has just set a precedent.

      •  You never read about Jesus kicking the money-le... (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Gram E

        You never read about Jesus kicking the money-lenders out of the temple? I thought that was pretty basic. But all that was drilled into me at weekly Sunday school lessons and vacation bible school, etc.

        •  I went to parochial school - (0+ / 0-)

          - and we were taught that the reason Jesus was outraged was because the bankers were defiling the Lord's temple by treating it like a place of business.

          Now, that could have been the nuns' way of oversimplifying usury... or it might have had something to do with the fact that even private Catholic schools (particularly at university level) offer loan packages...

      •  No. Loans are made pursuant to contract between... (0+ / 0-)

        No. Loans are made pursuant to contract between borrower and lender, even where the lender is the federal government.

      •  The SCOTUS (0+ / 0-)

        did not say that your belief has to be consistent, reasonable, or even based upon the religion you claim to believe in. Only that you claim it as a religious belief. That is all that matters.

        It is my personal religious belief that the five anti-woman justices on the Supreme Court majority should retire.

    •  Be careful about opening up this argument (3+ / 0-)

      of too late. All records show that Hobby Lobby quietly paid for insurance coverage that included birth control of all types, even the four "bad" ones, until the ACA, i.e., that black man's idea, became law. Yes, they did. They made no religious outcry until after ACA, and prior to, not a problem, no conflict that they spoke of.

      But just like so many others, these facts don't suit your story-telling. What a pesky problem.

      •  I ahve been looking for an answer to that (0+ / 0-)
        All records show that Hobby Lobby quietly paid for insurance coverage that included birth control of all types, even the four "bad" ones,
        Do you know where such records might be linked?

        “Texas is a so-called red state, but you’ve got 10 million Democrats here in Texas. And …, there are a whole lot of people here in Texas who need us, and who need us to fight for them.” President Obama

        by Catte Nappe on Tue Jul 22, 2014 at 02:33:29 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  Jubilee's still in there (3+ / 0-)

      There's always that 7-year issue.

      And don't think so small!  Let's get credit card debt in there too, particularly default rates, which are definitely edging into the usury territory, particularly with their "we declare the terms we want" clauses.

    •  maybe (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Catte Nappe

      but it is a CHALLENGE to the SYSTEM that is effed up, and the fact that going to college now makes permanent indentured servants out of people who are then hindered from realizing their true potention of their education because they must become servile, meek, fearful employees of some scum 1%er so they can not lose their job (if lucky to have one).

      Frankly, we, as a people, so intent on professing a CHRISTIAN nation, and insisting on GODS laws, must take to heart, and enforce, Deuteronomy 15 (i think 1st verse)....

      •  I just looked up Deuteronomy 15... (0+ / 0-)

        ...and unfortunately it only applies to fellow Israelites, debt forgiveness is not required if the debt is owed by a foreigner. Then again, the Decision declared that the belief did not have to be reasonable or rational, only that it be "sincerely held". So you can easily claim that you believe Deuteronomy 15 applies to you and you might have a case.

    •  Hobby Lobby (0+ / 0-)

      paid for contraceptives at one time and then changed their minds after the ACA became law.

      If someone tells you that you are putting too much peanut butter on your bread, stop talking to them. You don't need that kind of negativity in your life.

      by Cats r Flyfishn on Tue Jul 22, 2014 at 04:26:04 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  And they are still willing to pay for some of them (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        penelope pnortney, enufenuf

        Unfortunately, what the SCOTUS decision did was open the door - wide - for others to not pay for any of them. And for others to refuse coverage of other kinds of medical care. And a precedent for others to base discriminatory practices on their "corporate" religious beliefs.

        Even so, I think the more meaningful argument needs to move away from contraception and related issues to the additional assignment of personal rights to corporations. This, along with Citizens United, is giving corporations a level of Constitutional protection that seems extreme to many Americans, of all political stripes.

        “Texas is a so-called red state, but you’ve got 10 million Democrats here in Texas. And …, there are a whole lot of people here in Texas who need us, and who need us to fight for them.” President Obama

        by Catte Nappe on Tue Jul 22, 2014 at 04:40:53 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  This (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Catte Nappe, dcnblues, enufenuf
          Even so, I think the more meaningful argument needs to move away from contraception and related issues to the additional assignment of personal rights to corporations. This, along with Citizens United, is giving corporations a level of Constitutional protection that seems extreme to many Americans, of all political stripes.
          I want to see someone challenge the corporate veil.  Whether or not it succeeds, it should be hyped to the max - what, corporations have all the rights of American citizens but none of the responsibilities?  Maybe it's time to abolish corporations!

          What the people want is very simple. They want an America as good as its promise. - Barbara Jordan

          by penelope pnortney on Tue Jul 22, 2014 at 11:37:34 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  Hmm... you mean like Hobby Lobby could've (0+ / 0-)

      ALWAYS not covered those 4 forms of birth control they so strenuously object to... now? Now that the black Democrat in the White House says you HAVE to cover them, they're suddenly not so cool with them.

      See?  It's not so hard as all that.  But I think Ollie will have to somehow make Obamacare responsible in order for him to have standing in the court.

      I'll believe corporations are people when one comes home from Afghanistan in a body bag.

      by mojo11 on Tue Jul 22, 2014 at 04:49:13 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Every insurance plan has a "Formulary" (0+ / 0-)

        Every insurance plan has a "Formulary" (sp?) that spells out in detail EXACTLY what drugs and sometimes procedures they WILL and WILL NOT cover.  For example--Walmart will NOT cover tubal ligation etc.

        Now when we say--in common terms---Oh my Blue Cross will or will not pay for XYZ drugs---

        What you are most likely saying in reality is that the company you WORK FOR who CONTRACTS with Blue Cross etc to PROVIDE and ADMINISTER the insurance has decided---probably with NO input from the people who earn the money to pay FOR these policies---what THEY have decided THEY will pay for.  Or not.  

        Therefor my sister who has health insurance thru a State workers  program has only to "meet" her  low yearly deductibles and she will have her insulin and her insulin pump and supplies PAID FOR---while I who have coverage via my husbands large corporation--a so-called "Self Insured" company---will NOT.  

        I will pay each and every time I need a refill--and I will pay a LOT.  Yes it IS less than "retail" but--I have to pay regardless.  I can manage to "get" a new pump every four years because the Warranty runs out and our ins will not COVER supplies for an out of warranty pump---but if I have NOT met those specific deductibles---I could be forced to pay thousands.  If new and much improved pumps arrive on the scene in the meantime---screw you sez the Ins Co.  

        And if it is dental care NONE of the "Health care" Out of Pocket or deductibles COUNT towards it!

        One would think that keeping us HEALTHY would in the long run cost the insurance companies--public or private policies---LESS but some how they cannot seem to SEE this.

        But--Check out what YOUR insurance policy REALLY covers and WHO is paying for that.  Kinda scary wake up call for some on this one.  Know it was to me!

        •  Crony capitalists.. (0+ / 0-)

          ...don't care about the long run. They only care about making as much money as possible, as fast as possible. They're basically get-rich-quick schemers.

        •  Actually (0+ / 0-)

          Hobby Lobby is self insured and funds their own policy.  So in this case, it actually IS them.  But in the case of a third party payor, the policy owner (in this case the employer) can decide what they're wiling to pay the insurance company to cover.

          My point was that HL covered ALL of the stuff they suddenly found a religious qualm with pre-ACA.  But now that there's a law that says they have to cover what they voluntarily covered before, they're suddenly all squeamish.

          As I've said in numerous other comments on the topic, this has FUCK ALL to do with any "beliefs" -- religious ones at least.  This is about power and control.  And the fact that they can give the ACA a kick in the balls in the process is just a bonus.

          I'll believe corporations are people when one comes home from Afghanistan in a body bag.

          by mojo11 on Thu Jul 24, 2014 at 07:05:59 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  You don't have to... (0+ / 0-)

        ...tie it to the ACA to get standing. All you have to do is donate some money to the GOP.

    •  well i was agnostic (3+ / 0-)

      when I signed the loan, an atheist when I graduated and then found the light...and like Hobby Lobby...I did not know I was religious when I took out the loan...let's look at Hobby Lobby...

      The Green family, which founded Hobby Lobby in Oklahoma City in 1972, said as much in its original complaint.

      The Greens re-examined the company’s health insurance policy back in 2012, shortly before filing the lawsuit. A Wall Street Journal story says they looked into their plan after being approached by an attorney from the Becket Fund for Religious Liberty about possible legal action over the federal government’s contraceptives requirement.

      That was when, according to the company’s complaint, they were surprised to learn their prescription drug policy included two drugs, Plan B and ella, which are emergency contraceptive pills that reduce the chance of pregnancy in the days after unprotected sex. The government does not consider morning-after pills as abortifacients because they are used to prevent eggs from being fertilized (not to induce abortions once a woman is pregnant). This is not, however, what the Green family believes, which is that life begins at conception and these drugs impede the survival of fertilized eggs.

      At any rate, Hobby Lobby stopped covering those drugs in its plan and took the health care contraceptive mandate to court, represented by the Becket Fund.

      The only caveat here is Hobby Lobby said it didn’t know it was covering the drugs.

      And it only took Hobby Lobby, with more money to have attorneys reviewing their contracts from 2012 - 2014 to figure out what the hell their insurance policy said...

      And frankly, I would imagine it would take that long for the beer high to wear off most students to have them realize what their loan paperwork states...

      So take this to court....

      •  I call BULLSHIT on HL NOT knowing!!!!!!! (2+ / 0-)

        I call BULLSHIT on HL crying that they didn't KNOW what they were paying for--it is right there in plain sight on EVERY companies Drug Formulary.

        If they did NOT know--well they are worse business people than ALL of us would think and how the hell did they get to be as big as they are with out KNOWING what went into their HEALTH PLAN???   That they CONTRACTED for and PAID for????

        Are they claiming that they didn't know WHAT the drugs DID?  (I know the Court claimed it doesn't MATTER what is FACT here!!!!)   And they expect us to believe this fairy story????

        Do they believe in the Easter Bunny and Santa and that there is an invisible man in the sky who sent his kid here to get nailed to some old sticks but really there are three people in one body and and and---

        Seriously?????

    •  Got your own religion? Your loans are forgiven. (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      user23

      The Supreme Court's new ruling opened the floodgates and corporations that had no religion in the past have suddenly found religion and began taking advantage of it the day the ruliing was handed down. Nothing retroactive about it. And prior precident, rules and regulations didn't stop any corporations from standing in front of a cross.

      Thus, prior contracts ended with the Supreme Court decision.

      Advocating for things that help the middle class, and against things that don't.

      by BaldEagle on Tue Jul 22, 2014 at 08:46:04 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  The Hobby Lobby decision (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      user23

      opens up a completely new dialogue on who is forced to do what.. If Hobby Lobby got to skirt a law previously in effect so can students saddled with student loans.

    •  You are not accounting for the fact... (0+ / 0-)

      That the supreme court decision was not rendered when he accepted/signed...

      •  Doesn't matter. (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        user23

        If HL can suddenly change their formulary based on 'religious belief' (without consulting all the subscribers to their company health plan, i.e. Ask Permission of all of their employees) then they are in essence breaking a previously-agreed-to contract.

        You know how there's an 'enrollment period' every year for your health coverage? You're signing a contract for the chosen coverage, as is the healthcare provider.  They cannot change your coverage Until The Next Enrollment (and the next contract), where you again have to agree to the offered terms.

        So, yes, toss out an existing and agreed-upon contract due to 'religious objection'.  The previous terms don't matter, because "we have been saved" and as of RIGHT NOW we devoutly believe that certain items in this contract are sinful.  Until the contract is renegotiated, the whole thing is Null And Void.

        The Rich and Spoiled 1%'ers are making the Biker Gang 1%'ers look a lot better than they used to.

        by dcnblues on Wed Jul 23, 2014 at 09:43:47 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  Hobby Lobby (0+ / 0-)

      ...had already provided the benefits previously when they decided suddenly that they were against their religion.

      America, we can do better than this...

      by Randomfactor on Wed Jul 23, 2014 at 07:58:50 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Hobby Lobby, by paying insurance premiums that ... (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      user23

      Hobby Lobby, by paying insurance premiums that covered all contraceptives prior to the ACA, voluntarily accepted those terms as well.

    •  There is precedent, though - - (0+ / 0-)

      Right up until Obamacare made it mandatory, Hobby Lobby had been providing birth control of all sorts to its female employees.  The choice was left to the woman in consultation with her physician.  
      Furthermore, it had been holding stock in the very sorts of birth control it now condemns.

      Then this corporate person got religion real fast.  Hmm.  One has to wonder why - - -

      Still, whatever the motive, if the individual person, Hobby Lobby, can change its mind due to external circumstances, I imagine OllieGarkey can do the same, right?  

      That's the thing about precedent: you establish it at your own risk.

      The price of apathy is to be ruled by evil men - - Plato . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . We must be the change we wish to see in the world - - Mohandas Gandhi

      by twocrows1023 on Wed Jul 23, 2014 at 03:05:24 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  They still (0+ / 0-)

        hold those stocks. They are still making money off companies who violate their religion. Their only REAL religion is the making of money.

        •  IMO, they hold two religions: (0+ / 0-)

          First, as  you say, there's their worship of Manna.  

          And their second religion is that of stopping the Black man in the White House from doing anything at all.  That's the only explanation of the facts on the ground here.

          The price of apathy is to be ruled by evil men - - Plato . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . We must be the change we wish to see in the world - - Mohandas Gandhi

          by twocrows1023 on Thu Jul 24, 2014 at 03:31:45 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  Nope. According To SCOTUS: (0+ / 0-)

      Simply INCORPORATE. Past behavior does not presuppose future behavior.

      If #LobbyHobby is a person now, it needs an exorcism.

Subscribe or Donate to support Daily Kos.

Click here for the mobile view of the site