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View Diary: repost--I/P--sorry--still newbie (74 comments)

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  •  It's one step, bro... (4+ / 0-)

    Tomorrow Hamas shuts down the rockets, holds a press conference, says "we recognize Israel and will work with Abbas to build a state."

    It's done within a few months, Bibi can't stop it, and Syria gets solved shortly after.

    •  But Bibi will continue to build settlements. (7+ / 0-)

      Thomas Friedman said Israel could be:

      1. Greater Israel

      2. A Jewish State

      3. A Democracy

      Pick TWO.

      Israel has already passed laws that basically eliminated the Arab political parties in Israel. The Arab citizens of Israel have nothing like proportional representation--it's kind of like the DC Representative to Congress.

      "You can't fix stupid" --Ron White -6.00, -5.18

      by zenbassoon on Thu Jul 24, 2014 at 09:38:19 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Actually it's two. (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:

      1.Hamas makes announcements.
      2.Israel stops rockets and gas.

      1 isn't happening. Hamas is a terrorist group that only gains recruits the more Israel does the shit they're doing. Hamas isn't harmed as an organization in any way by this when 80% of civilians are casualties and they gain tens of thousands of recruits. If 2 would happen and Israel would pull back out of the settlements and go home it'd be a good second step to peace. The first step was Hamas(the political entity) and the PLO agreeing to a unity government.

      •  ok then... (4+ / 0-)

        you're pretty much admitting that Hamas doesn't care one iota (it's arguable if Israel does I say they do) about the civilians dying.  Because if "1" happened, Hamas would be pretty much done for but there sure won't be any more kids dying.

        You're also probably right that it's not happening and I'm in a dream world.

        •  I can't speak for Hamas. (6+ / 0-)

          I've never met a Hamas member in real life, let alone leadership. But. I doubt they do care about the civilians. You don't fire rockets from behind civilians if you give a shit about them.

          I'm not a Hamas supporter. None of the so-called pro-P posters are. I simply feel that the reality of the situation is the more civilians Israel kills (and I'm honestly questioning their motives at this point. Hitting a school TWICE and bombing a U.N. Center? Come on.) the more empowered Hamas is. The more Israel extends an olive branch, the weaker Hamas becomes. The citizens of Gaza have had their trust in Israel wiped out, though, and it would take a lot to rebuild it. It's an issue that's incredibly complex with a solution more complex than either of us could do justice for, but bombing the shit out of Gaza isn't fixing anything.

    •  What makes you think Bibi would allow a state? (9+ / 0-)

      Have you looked at a map of what remains for the Palestinians in the West Bank? Do you think Israel is going to walk away from the billions of dollars spent on the illegal settlements?

      In 20 years all that will remain of the Palestinians will be on a few dozen "reservations" located on the poorest land surrounded with 20 foot high walls topped with barbed wire.

      Netanyahu finally tells the truth that everyone has known for decades.

      Netanyahu finally speaks his mind

      At his Friday press conference, the prime minister ruled out full Palestinian sovereignty, derided the US approach to Israeli security, and set out his Middle East overview with unprecedented candor. His remarks were not widely reported; they should be.
      Netanyahu has stressed often in the past that he doesn’t want Israel to become a binational state — implying that he favors some kind of accommodation with and separation from the Palestinians. But on Friday he made explicit that this could not extend to full Palestinian sovereignty. Why? Because, given the march of Islamic extremism across the Middle East, he said, Israel simply cannot afford to give up control over the territory immediately to its east, including the eastern border — that is, the border between Israel and Jordan, and the West Bank and Jordan.

      The priority right now, Netanyahu stressed, was to “take care of Hamas.” But the wider lesson of the current escalation was that Israel had to ensure that “we don’t get another Gaza in Judea and Samaria.” Amid the current conflict, he elaborated, “I think the Israeli people understand now what I always say: that there cannot be a situation, under any agreement, in which we relinquish security control of the territory west of the River Jordan.”

      Not relinquishing security control west of the Jordan, it should be emphasized, means not giving a Palestinian entity full sovereignty there. It means not acceding to Mahmoud Abbas’s demands, to Barack Obama’s demands, to the international community’s demands. This is not merely demanding a demilitarized Palestine; it is insisting upon ongoing Israeli security oversight inside and at the borders of the West Bank. That sentence, quite simply, spells the end to the notion of Netanyahu consenting to the establishment of a Palestinian state. A less-than-sovereign entity? Maybe, though this will never satisfy the Palestinians or the international community. A fully sovereign Palestine? Out of the question.

      He wasn’t saying that he doesn’t support a two-state solution. He was saying that it’s impossible. This was not a new, dramatic change of stance by the prime minister. It was a new, dramatic exposition of his long-held stance.

      •  you're missing that... (0+ / 0-)

        In my scenario, Israel no longer has enemies.  Hamas has stood down and announced recognition, and Syria and Israel have come to a rental agreement similar to Hong Kong, Britain, and China.

        In this scenario Bibi would have no choice but to agree to a Palestinian State as international pressure would include the US.

        •  Have you ever considered that Israel WANTS enemies (8+ / 0-)

          Without enemies, Israel could not have been doing what is has for the last 6 decades. Israel wants Jerusalem and the West Bank and it is taking them - by bulldozing one Palestine home/orchard at a time.

          Here's a quick history lesson for you:

          •  The ideological division between the supporters of (6+ / 0-)

            Zionist Israel and the supporters of Palestinian statehood is as sharp as the division between Republicans and Democrats. Don't expect kossacks who favor the Israeli position in the current conflict to watch the video you've posted - rationalizing Israel's disproportionate reaction to the rocket attacks of Hamas demands a willful ignorance and dismissal of the overriding provocation of the Israeli policy of ever expanding, permanent settlements in Palestinian land.

            Just HOW do we get our representatives to move in a populist direction without threatening electoral consequences for their willful failure to do so? (This is the issue routinely avoided by party loyalists at the GOS.)

            by WisePiper on Thu Jul 24, 2014 at 11:34:54 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  I count myself supporter of Israel. (0+ / 0-)

              I would still demand that Israel pull out of West Bank completely (as they did to Gaza before all the violence started).
              Israel don't belong in West Bank, that's Palestinian territory as original agreed upon.

            •  A Palestinian state was a concession by the (0+ / 0-)

              Palestinians. Originally they wanted a secular, democratic state in which Jews and Palestinian Christians and Muslims would live in one state in peace.
                 The Israeli response was a demand that the Palestinians recognize Israel's "right to exist."

    •  Very, very naive, nt (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:

      Iron sharpens Iron. Normal is a dryer setting. STOP illegal immigration NOW! -- Make it LEGAL. If Corporations are People--Let's draft them.

      by benamery21 on Fri Jul 25, 2014 at 02:46:00 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

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