Skip to main content

View Diary: Israel admits HAMAS didn't kidnap the 3 Israeli teens after all (565 comments)

Comment Preferences

  •  No, that wouldn't be what I'm advocationg (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Proteus7

    What I'm advocating is peace. From both sides. I've never advocated anything else.

    •  No, you advocate surrender (10+ / 0-)

      not peace. You refuse to even discuss the occupation.

      No War but Class War

      by AoT on Fri Jul 25, 2014 at 09:17:18 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I don't know how old you are (0+ / 0-)

        but it's very possible that my opposition to any Israeli government involvement in Judea and Samaria (before it was renamed the west bank), and in Gaza predates your birth.

        •  Oh, well, if your old then (8+ / 0-)

          you must be right. Nice job with the ageism. What an absolute joke. And if you oppose the actions of the Israeli government then you could speak out against them in some way other than just platitude about how everyone needs to be peaceful. They lied and invaded and killed tens and kidnapped hundreds. You still put the blame for everything on Hamas.

          No War but Class War

          by AoT on Fri Jul 25, 2014 at 09:29:49 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Is there some (0+ / 0-)

            shortage of people speaking out against Israel here? Will 100 more people writing comments on the internet cause peace to break out? There are scores of inequities all over the world. I'm grateful when they are brought to my attention, particularly when they provide information that I didn't previously have. But more internet comments won't cure any of them.

        •  I don't know how old YOU are, but it's a fact that (5+ / 0-)

          I became politically 'aware' when my Dominionist missionary parents held a spontaneous prayer meeting of praise (in our kitchen --a first) as the UN vote to partition Palestine came over our radio. I was five.

          Five years later, when we were on our mission station in Bopolo, Liberia and I was reading a copy of Time or perhaps an American newspaper, I read a reference to "the uninhabited land of Palestine" and I flashed back to that vote memory. I thought, 'Why did they need to divide up an empty land?'

          Neither your very possible nor my factual early bios are actually germane to AoT's points, unless you were using yours to plead early-onset. So let's speak of those points. Do you dispute the facts in the diary and the underlying premise that it is both wrong and evil to suggest that Hamas provoked the Israel Government into attacking blockaded Gaza yet again from land, sea and air?

          Enough fossil fuel remains on Earth to warm it 6 degrees C by 2100 AD if it is all used. A +6 C planet will only sustain half a billion humans. Human population will rise to 9 billion by 2050. Any questions?

          by davidincleveland on Sat Jul 26, 2014 at 06:04:18 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  I don't see (0+ / 0-)

            much in the way of "facts" in the diary. I see one reporter's claim that she has proof that Israel knew that it wasn't a kidnapping and was actually a murder, and that those responsible for those murders are affiliated with Hamas.

            Even if these yet unsubstantiated "facts" are true, it wouldn't be any kind of "aha" moment. Israel didn't respond to the possibly false reports of a kidnapping by bombing Gaza. They responded to hundreds of rockets being fired from Gaza into Israel.

            I'm more than a bit mystified that people seem to think that the murder of the 3 young men is somehow less horrific than if they had been kidnapped. Neither is justification for what Israel has done over the last 3 weeks, and I haven't seen anywhere that Israel has attempted to use that horrific event as justification. But if they had, wouldn't murdering 3 boys be at least as bad as kidnapping them?

            •  Only one of two things could account for this (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              IndieGuy, Black Mare

              reply. Either you didn't read the diary or you're deliberately lying. Either way, I'm done pretending we're communicating, and pretending to believe you are sincere-but-ignorant. May every death you've added your shameful obfuscation to haunt your nights and keep you sleepless.

              Enough fossil fuel remains on Earth to warm it 6 degrees C by 2100 AD if it is all used. A +6 C planet will only sustain half a billion humans. Human population will rise to 9 billion by 2050. Any questions?

              by davidincleveland on Sat Jul 26, 2014 at 08:34:47 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Really (0+ / 0-)

                I've killed people because I can't see invisible facts?

                Of course you can't actually provide any clarity for those invisible facts, because they don't exist in this diary. "someone said" is not proof. Kidnapped kids are not worse than dead kids. To the family and friends of those boys, dead at the hands of Hamas is not significantly different than dead at the hands of people who are allied with Hamas. Just as dead at the hands of right wing extremists is not significantly different than dead at the hands of the Israeli government. Dead is dead.

                •  Ah. I wronged you. Forgive me. I now understand (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  DeadHead

                  your problem. Not lack of diary-and-links reading at all --or not necessarily. You 'translated'

                  death you've added your shameful obfuscation to
                  [emphases for the visually impaired]
                  into
                  killed people
                  Reading comprehension.

                  Enough fossil fuel remains on Earth to warm it 6 degrees C by 2100 AD if it is all used. A +6 C planet will only sustain half a billion humans. Human population will rise to 9 billion by 2050. Any questions?

                  by davidincleveland on Sat Jul 26, 2014 at 10:05:15 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  maybe you skipped a word (0+ / 0-)
                    May every death you've added your shameful obfuscation to haunt your nights and keep you sleepless
                    .

                    Maybe I've misunderstood what you meant by that sentence. But even after reading it a few times, I have no idea what it's supposed to mean other than me causing deaths. Maybe a word is missing, maybe a comma is missing. Either way, you'll have to point to anywhere I've obfuscated anything.

        •  I'm on Medicare (0+ / 0-)

          And I read the same info as AoT.

          I have no idea what your age is.

          This has nothing to do with age.

          It has to do with believing one rogue state's propaganda or not.

          Every time a poor person dies a Republican gets his horns.

          by Black Mare on Sat Jul 26, 2014 at 12:56:05 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  And again you can't be bothered to answer (6+ / 0-)

      the question.

      What is the appropriate response to Israel invading and killing tens of people and kidnapping hundreds?

      No War but Class War

      by AoT on Fri Jul 25, 2014 at 09:17:59 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I shouldn't (0+ / 0-)

        give you the time of day with the vicious lies you told about me.

        The right response from both sides is peace. Don't fire rockets. Don't drop bombs. Despite what you think, I mourn the death of every single person in this conflict. It didn't have to happen this way.

        •  No, it didn't. Israel didn't have to lie (13+ / 0-)

          about the dead students and attack Palestinians. Of course your "solution" is for the Palestinians to grin and bear it. Who cares how many die?

          Israel is not pursuing peace no matter how much you may want them to. How should Palestinians respond to mass killing and kidnappings?

          No War but Class War

          by AoT on Fri Jul 25, 2014 at 09:26:06 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Why do you continue (0+ / 0-)

            to tell lies about me?

          •  And in your world (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Proteus7

            where only one side is ever right, and one side is always wrong, the Israelis should just accept rockets flying into their land 7 times a month, risking lives of civilians. But then, you don't care about dead Israelis. Unlike you, I care about both. I don't want either side to kill the other. War is an acknowledgement of failure. It is never the right solution.

            •  You and Israel blame every rocket on Hamas (6+ / 0-)

              and you won't even be bothered to talk about the blockade except when you justify it as necessary. So you aren't for peace. A blockade is an act of war.

              ut then, you don't care about dead Israelis.
              More Israeli civilians die from lightning strikes than from Hamas. you know what Israel should actually be fighting against? Global warming. They're so fucking wrapped up in this bullshit fight that they're ignoring the real threat.

              And I know a number of Israelis, so don't tell me I don't care about them. I've just got eyes and can see that Israel is massacring
              Palestinians and using excuses like yours to justify it.

              No War but Class War

              by AoT on Fri Jul 25, 2014 at 09:35:01 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  I shouldn't tell you (0+ / 0-)

                how you feel about something that you've never expressed? Is that what you're saying? I'd appreciate the same consideration.

                •  You've repeatedly dodged the question. (8+ / 0-)

                  I've read every comment, and you've repeatedly dodged the question.

                  Fact: Israel knew the boys were dead, and they pretended they were alive and were looking for them.
                  Fact: Israel attacked, killed, and imprisoned hundreds using this excuse.

                  What is the appropriate response to this by the Palestinians with their meager and mostly worthless rockets?

                  Should the Palestinians do nothing and pray for peace?
                  Do you think Israel will not use this to scuttle peace talks and to build more settlements in the West Bank?

                  Again...
                  What is the appropriate response by the Palestinians?
                  What is the appropriate response by the Palestinians?
                  What is the appropriate response by the Palestinians?
                  What is the appropriate response by the Palestinians?
                  What is the appropriate response by the Palestinians?

                  And once more...
                  What is the appropriate response by the Palestinians?

                  •  You don't like my answer (0+ / 0-)

                    that doesn't mean I haven't answered it.

                    •  You think your answer is sufficient? (3+ / 0-)

                      Do you acknowledge what has happened?
                      Are you even remotely persuadable?

                      I stood on the sidelines of this deplorable loss of life giving Israel far more benefit of the doubt than they clearly ever deserved (know what we know now.)

                      Now that we KNOW the fucking truth, what should our response be as Americans?  Continue to blindly side with Israel on everything that they do?

                      What is your response to knowing the truth?

                      •  Pretty much the same (0+ / 0-)

                        as my response to finding out that Iraq didn't have WMD. Though I don't think that Israel ever tried to sell this current round as a response to the kidnapping. As I said in another in another comment, Israel has never needed an excuse to go into Gaza. They go in when they think it's necessary.

                        I still don't know the truth. And neither do you. Nor do I care much. I know 6 died leading up to the current round. They died because their leadership can't make peace. And since then hundreds more are dead.

                        •  We have eyes and ears too. (8+ / 0-)

                          "I don't think that Israel ever tried to sell this current round as a response to the kidnapping."

                          Don't forget - the rest of us have eyes and ears as well.  It is incredibly disingenuous and insults our intelligence to hear this talking point now that the truth is out.

                          Timeline:
                          - Hamas linked groups have been ineffectually firing rockets on and off all year - no-one in Israel was harmed thanks to the Iron Dome (pre-escalation).

                          - Three Israeli kids were kidnapped and killed - not by Hamas leadership and not by the Palestinian Authority.

                          - Israel blamed Hamas (want the quotes?) and escalates by rearresting hundreds who had been released as part of the peace process.

                          - Hamas fires many more ineffectual rockets due to this escalation

                          - Israel attacks with missiles and invasion and crushes Palestine fully blaming Hamas for the hostilities.

                          Hamas' hands are not clean historically, but neither is Israel's.  There is nothing I despise more than fundamentalism - but that's not what we're talking about here.  Who's at fault for this escalation?  And once we determine that, we can pressure that party to back off.  If you think Hamas is at fault, you should be advocating for stepped up attacks. Are you?

                          But if you don't think that Hamas is at fault in this case - then why are you defending Israel's actions?  Does the burden of de-escalation not lie with the party at fault?

                          I reject the idea that Israel is truly fearful of the rocket attacks that have been going on.  Just recently the US issued a travel advisory on planes landing in Tel Aviv, because a rocket landed nearby. In order to avoid loss of tourism dollars, Israel rushed to lobby to lift that advisory, claiming that Israel is perfectly safe.  Bloomberg made a big show of traveling to Israel to demonstrate how safe it is.

                          So which is it?  Is Israel in fear for its life every waking moment, or is it perfectly safe?  Can't be both.

          •  not to mention (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            AoT, orestes1963, DeadHead

            having been blockaded for 7 years and cut off from basic necessities including access to decent water and building material. Of course the Palestinians are 'telegenicaly dead' and it's all Hamas's fault. Some people act like that this is just a matter of the Palestinian people allowing Hamas to lob ineffectual rockets into Israel. Gaza is a refugee camp and that's the polite description more like a concentration camp.  
            Considering cause and effect would however make them have to look at what has gone on for years as far as the Israelis oppression of the Palestinians. What means do the Palestinians have to defend themselves against the Israelis or even have a functioning government that allows them self determination? It's a catch 22 as the Israelis and the US refuse to acknowledge them as a valid nation state. A perfect place for an organization like Hamas to take root. Do people think they should just roll over and not resist and live like they have no human or civil rights.

            Israel's refusal to acknowledge them as people deserving to live in there own land with full human/civil rights and autonomy gives raise to 'extremist terrorist' groups like Hamas. Blow back that radicalizes people comes from the real terrorizing of people in this region. US foreign policy has the nerve to proclaim that we're stabilizing these rogue nation's. Any resistance by the people who must live where this is occurring are insurgent's.  In Palestine's case their isn't even a nation state to stabilize.    

        •  The "both sides do it" is a dishonest intellectual (12+ / 0-)

          dodge.

          For one thing, an occupied people have the right of resistence under international law.

          For another, there is NO proportional equivalent between Hamas rockets and Israel's sophisticated, armored and heavily armed military attacks on known civilian areas, known hospitals and known schools.

          There's much more, but if you care to think about it, that's a start.

          "The law is meant to be my servant and not my master, still less my torturer and my murderer." -- James Baldwin. July 11, 1966.

          by YucatanMan on Fri Jul 25, 2014 at 11:17:51 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

Subscribe or Donate to support Daily Kos.

Click here for the mobile view of the site