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View Diary: IDF leveled Gaza neighborhood killing scores all to kill its captured soldier & his Hamas captor (291 comments)

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  •  i don't think shame should be the goal (2+ / 0-)
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    stargaze, poco

    of our politics. Shame is a tool to be used for particular ends, but if you become obsessed by shame and honor, "forced depopulation" (also known as genocide) is exactly what you'll get.

    •  What I mean is that we should leave the destruc... (1+ / 0-)
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      What I mean is that we should leave the destruction in situ for later generations to reflect upon. When I say 'shame', I mean that as an eventual effect, not as a primary goal.

      This "conflict" has gone too far, for far too long. NONE of the participants, *the people of Israel included*, have anything close to clean hands. This will *not* come to an end at the hands of anyone within.

      It will also never end so long as anyone on any side believes themselves to be in the right. Their shame should come from the loss of "their" homelands, *at their own hands*.

      And all sides richly deserve it. All sides deserve to have the international community decide that "their" holy land can belong to none of them. They have proven themselves unworthy, for all time.

      •  this kind of thinking is fine for scifi novels (0+ / 0-)

        once again, forced relocation is genocide, and an actual attempt to depopulate the region would of course be millions of times more awful than what we see there now.

        The idea that innocent civilians caught in the violence deserve more punishment is just stupid. Other very old and bloody conflicts have seen happier progress toward resolution (think of the English and Irish, for instance), and the idea that you've judged, "that's it, this has gone long enough" makes me laugh.

        And the idea that violence in the middle east is entirely the fault of the people there is similarly ridiculous. Once more, the bulk of the explanation deeply implicates the occupier and the dominator, which in one way or another has been the west for a long time now.

        You really need some broader perspective on this stuff.

    •  We shamed and punished Germany (1+ / 0-)
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      after WW I, and many believe it was one of the factors that led to WW II.

      •  and in other situations, as with apartheid, (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Heart of the Rockies

        people have chosen to use public shame as a peacemaking tool, often in lieu of other serious punishment, to reportedly positive effect. There is no one solution for everywhere, and that's part of the reason analogies to other situations are so important in this kind of discussion.

        •  The situation in South Africa (0+ / 0-)

          was quite different from Germany in 1917. Germany was conquered by other countries and had to pay reparations for many years, which intensified the depression.  And who was right or wrong in WW I wasn't comparable to the situation in WW II.

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