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View Diary: Not Just the Adults – Secular Kids’ IQs also Higher (321 comments)

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  •  And these are the same measures (11+ / 0-)

    that scientific racism relies on. There is a large amount of knowledge that goes into IQ tests. If you are raised in the right environment it's easy to score a 'genius' level on these.

    That said, I think that there is probably a little something here, mainly that people who are raised religious are less able to think in a way that conforms to the current scientific paradigm. I think that the lower scores probably reflect the fact that those children, and adults, who are religious and very smart probably use their intelligence in different ways than the IQ tests measure.

    I would really like to see this same study done over time to see whether being religious as a child has a long term effect on IQ scores or if a child who later leaves the faith quickly scores equivalent to someone who is raised atheist.

    No War but Class War

    by AoT on Sun Jul 27, 2014 at 07:07:10 PM PDT

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    •  Kids from religious schools less able to tell fact (7+ / 0-)

      from fiction, see the link to the study above.

      As for other such studies, please feel free to pass them on.

      The Secular School Teacher

      by SecularSchoolTeacher on Sun Jul 27, 2014 at 07:43:44 PM PDT

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    •  IQ scores are overrated. (4+ / 0-)

      Religions tend to teach known falsehoods as fact.  I am aware of more than one formerly religious folk whom, upon learning how wildly out of touch with reality their former community was, get rather upset with the community's inherent resistance to education.

      I suspect adopting an understanding of the world that is- at its core- false and unlikely to yield a correct understanding of the world around one is likely to hinder one's IQ.  Just because it allows one to spend little to no time honing the skills of intelligence.

      •  This is just a generalization of IQ scores, but (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        democracy inaction

        they do contain critical thinking questions, which shows intelligence.

        The Secular School Teacher

        by SecularSchoolTeacher on Sun Jul 27, 2014 at 08:49:01 PM PDT

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        •  That is true. (0+ / 0-)

          When I was a child, I played puzzle games for hours on end.  Hours upon hours.  Any and every puzzle game.  Even writing or designing my own puzzles.

          Eventually, I learned that my capability for solving puzzles made me smarter than everyone else.  One tends to have more of a thing the more one invests in it.

          But like how having more money doesn't necessarily make you better at handling money, having a higher IQ doesn't necessarily make you smarter.  At best, there's a mild correlation.  I've known some pretty smart morons.

          I also find it surprising how little people understand domains of human experience like philosophy (which causes a lot of thinking mistakes!), but that's another issue.

      •  While I understand your point, I've been a life... (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        tarkangi, Paul Rogers

        While I understand your point, I've been a life long Lutheran. We don't stifle people's use of their intellect. I don't view "faith" as somehow conjuring up enough mind energy to believe certain precepts, but exclude others. Rather it is a sort of peace of mind and heart that comes through hearing, seeing, and receiving. It isn't something a human does.

        •  ELCA (0+ / 0-)

          It's commonplace in these discussions for people to make pretty odd claims for what "religious folk" believe, so I have found it best to roll with the punch and prod the conversation into more productive lines.

          Because "Indian Jones and the Temple of Doom" may well be a documentary of archaic Hindu practices (1) but it has precious little to do with my faith community.
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          (1) it isnt.

          Vai o tatu-bola escamoso encontrar-me onde estou escondendo? Lembro-me do caminho de ouro, uma pinga de mel, meu amado Parati (-8.75,-8.36)

          by tarkangi on Sun Jul 27, 2014 at 10:29:01 PM PDT

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        •  I find peace in just experiencing my life in a Zen (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Pluto, RiveroftheWest

          fashion. Zen involves no gods or devils, heaven or hell, just a meditative kind of way to experience life. I also found peace once I realized there was no indifferent, rather cruel and capricious, god who allowed eight million innocent children to starve to death every year. (That wouldn't happen on my watch!) I find my peace in science and reason, and I think the world would be a better place if we embraced that.

          The Secular School Teacher

          by SecularSchoolTeacher on Sun Jul 27, 2014 at 10:59:43 PM PDT

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        •  Trickle down knowledge. (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Pluto, RiveroftheWest

          In terms of how to best gain knowledge about the world, how to best make moral judgements and so on, I do take issue with the idea that there is a source of some kind whom lets information about the true nature of the universe trickle down to prophets, who then in turns lets that information trickle down to the masses.

          If anything, our understanding of how best to gain accurate knowledge works in the exact opposite way.  Epistemology and science is bottom-up, not top-down.

          I'm not familiar with every religion out there (nor will I ever be), but I'm not yet aware of one that promotes values of understanding reality through the bottom up processes of epistemological study.  There's always an undercurrent of top-down revelation of knowledge.

          When I talk about the understanding of the world being false, I mean there's a claim of knowledge in there made contrary to how knowledge actually works.

          I don't consider that kind of faith to be a good thing.

          I don't believe that many, even the most fanatic of fundies, set out purposefully with a goal of stifling intellect.  But it does seem to be a consequence of the belief system.  To what extent it occurs can be either negligible or fairly major.

          •  Buddhism is the most accepting of scientific ev... (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            RiveroftheWest, Paul Rogers

            Buddhism is the most accepting of scientific evidence that I know of.

            if scientific analysis were conclusively to demonstrate certain claims in Buddhism to be false, then we must accept the findings of science and abandon those claims. ~Tenzin Gyatso, 14th Dalai Lama

          •  Lutheran Christians (0+ / 0-)

            I've never heard of Lutherans stifling inquiry.  Well, I should qualify that because my husband was raised in a branch of Lutherans that, at least back then, didn't like any talk of creation not happening POOF!

            However, I don't believe that any Lutheran University or College would put a lid on the scientific inquiry of any department.  

            It is quite possible that scientific investigation may show some attributes that seem to prove that there is a God -- or that there isn't.  

            It is also quite possible that God's ways and mind are so much beyond human understanding that cannot grasp it.  It is possible that there are "ways of thinking" that would put human "logic" in a very tiny box, so to speak.  

            After all, even human "logic" has different methods or schools of thought that don't agree.  

            And I do not think I'm smart enough to understand God, if there is indeed a God.

            Green and buzzy (mosquitoes.)

            by Andy Cook on Wed Jul 30, 2014 at 12:37:46 PM PDT

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            •  One side is grounded philosophy, the other is not. (0+ / 0-)

              I've never really talked much with a Lutheran.  So I know really very little about their belief that distinguishes them from all the other versions of christianity.  But I will say that a number of honest, and smart people are christians.  My statement doesn't preclude that.  Being smart doesn't mean one can't be mistaken.

              Science addresses how things are, builds models, explains observations.  It builds on knowledge from little pieces that overlap, creating a bigger and bigger understanding of the world over time.  It can't explain everything, but what it can do is provide progressively better models for us to use, and a way to be confident in those models.

              Religion (the ones I'm familiar with, at least) addresses things differently.  There are assertions about the nature of things gained through some divine, or divinely inspired source.  It then works backwards, trying to extrapolate from the metaphysics explanations for real world phenomena.  Figuring out what God wants.  That practice is called theology.

              These are opposite approaches to understanding the world.  Religion is fine as long as its claims always retreat in the face of scientific models, and lots of theology does do that by tempering their theological reasoning according to modern science.  This is sometimes called the God of the gaps.

              But there are some who correctly recognize that approach does weaken the position of the religion.  Because it places the scientific way of understanding the world above faith in the prophets, god, the holy text, etc...  These people are what atheists see most often as what a believer is, because these people are loud.  They are enemies for both non-believers and weak believers.

              I do suspect that a majority of religious people want there to be some kind of middle ground.  These people, in my view, give the deniers of science some cover by muddling the discussion.  It doesn't make them stupid to do so (after all, compromise is a good value!), but it does make them mistaken, as they want to make a compromise between knowledge and ignorance.

    •  I'm sorry, but one thing you just said is pure BS. (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      RiveroftheWest
      If you are raised in the right environment it's easy to score a 'genius' level on these.
      This is nonsense.

      There is some truth to the reverse: If you are not raised in the right environment it's hard to score in the higher echelons, regardless of your innate capabilities.

      Nonetheless, and like it or not, really smart people are born that way. Anyone who has ever had the experience of interacting with exceptionally intelligent toddlers knows that they are very, very different from their peers.

      And for that matter, if you are exceptionally intelligent yourself, you know that you are different from your peers -- you know that there are things you understand effortlessly that most people aren't ever going to understand, period.

      To put the torture behind us is, inevitably, to put it in front of us.

      by UntimelyRippd on Sun Jul 27, 2014 at 09:23:59 PM PDT

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    •  Because I was raised in a poor family (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      RiveroftheWest

      (economically always struggling) and my IQ test scores are very high, I'm going to anecdotally disagree with you based upon my one personal data point! :)

      There is a large amount of knowledge that goes into IQ tests. If you are raised in the right environment it's easy to score a 'genius' level on these.

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