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View Diary: BREAKING: UN Security Council unanimously calls for a ceasefire in Gaza (132 comments)

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  •  They aren't warring parties under international (20+ / 0-)

    law. Israel controls the Palestinian territories, and it is not legally possible to war against people under your charge ... some other term is needed (I would say "murder" myself).

    http://www.thenation.com/...

    •  I take your point, but in ordinary English usage (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      WisVoter

      warring merely means ‘in conflict’; it does not (necessarily) imply that the parties are at war in any formal or technical sense.

      •  This diary is about the U.N. Security Council. (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Bob Love, frostbite

        I would have thought it obvious why I referred to international law in this context.

        •  It is obvious, and there’s certainly nothing (4+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          poco, frostbite, capelza, cybrestrike

          wrong with pointing out that the term is not being used in its technical sense.  I just didn’t see any reason to worry about it: I would not expect most readers to assume that material not in quotation marks uses a term of art, and those who do realize that warring can be such a term will almost certainly also realize that it must have its everyday sense here.  Frankly, it still seems to me to be rather a storm in a teacup, but I’ll change it to the parties to the conflict.

    •  And if people want to know what Israel should do (14+ / 0-)

      instead: what they were morally obligated to do back in 1967 when the territories came under their control ... protect the people under their charge and enable them to self-govern, much as the U.S. did after WWII, by pouring resources into the occupied territories. Instead, Israel has been (morally) criminally stingy, treating the Palestinian people the way the U.S. treated Amerinds.

      •  i was there extensively before, during & after '67 (10+ / 0-)

        and resources WERE poured in. Israel repaired infrastructure and property that had been in ruin since the brits took over from the Ottomans, built sanitation and roads where non had existed, built healthcare & educational facilities & staffed them, brought in steady supplies of food, water, etc. And gradually turned it all over to local communities.

        The before&after differences in some cases blended in and others ere extreme to the point that between one week and the next, you could go to the same place and it could look so different that only large permanent landmarks would make clear it was the same place. But construction and repair like those don't last, or don't last recognizeably, if they are neglected or are charged outwardly in major ways. And when violent destruction of one kind or another does the change ---there were news reports including film footage over subsequent years of things built by israel being torn down and blown up by local political operatives (to put it diplomatically), others being refaced to change outward appearance...  it's improbable than anyone years later can look at what remains and state definitively or with authority "this has always been wreckage, Israel did nothing for this need" or "Israel destroyed this" or "local political machinery destroyed this."  

        All you can say for sure is, if you're there as building or rebuilding is in process, if you're there as truckload after truckload of toilets and plumbing and watermain pipes & fittings rolls in, if you're there as huge containers of water are being unloaded to groups of 4 and 6 local men needed to carry each putting their shoulders under the containers and taking them down this street or that, that you can see the markings on the trucks and on the uniforms of the people bringing these things in so you know who is doing it, and you can see the clothing of the people who receive the things brought in. And if your situation requires you to be in several places like that, and everywhere you go the big open trucks are rolling, the personal eye-witness conclusion is that public reports of resources being poured in FROM A NATION THE SIZE OF RHODE ISLAND THAT WAS PRINCIPALLY AN AGRARIAN NOT RICH NATION AT THE TIME BECAUSE ITS EDUCATIONAL & SCIENTIFIC & TECHNOLOGICAL DEVELOPMENT & RESULTANT WESTERN WORLD APPEARANCE YOU SEE TODAY WAS NOT THERE YET and that this is being a huge burden on the extremely high taxes Israelis paid then and still do ---because they had universal healthcare, universal education, and sturdy social safety nets the U.S. still does not give americans certainly not "Amerinds"--- but the general agreement was "this is the right thing to do because it's needed, these people are living in the 19th century; this is a worthwhile thing to do because it is the concrete (literally) action that IS peace, this is doing peace.  

        Search DK for how many diaries there are telling the people of the middle east how to solve their problems. Then search for how many diaries talk about what WE AMERICANS are concretely doing to solve the problems of our own people here, Native American, African American, Hispanic whose forebears were Native American and Spanish here long before the forbears of the rest of us.  Have we solved the horrific damages done to those 'minorities'? Have we solved the problem of plutocracy? What EXPERIENCE do we have in solving problems that gives us the expertise to tell people far away dealing with nuts'n'bolts we have zero daily skills with, what they "should" do and "need" to do to solve their problems?

        Maybe all we're doing is jabbing at the inflammed wounds of people far away and making the infection worse while telling ourselves we're doctoring them so we don't have to look our own national failures in the face.

        Or does the expression "think global, act local" mean sit locally at our computers and turn our emotional feelings loose on the worldwideweb?  Seriously, what makes our opinions about the rest of the world more valuable to the world we put time and energy and internet connection money into.... than lacing up workboots and going to where in our towns and states people need our shoulders at the wheel and our cash for their teachers' salaries and free clinics and roof repairs and clean water supply and unpolluted food?

        What skills and expertise might we gain in getting away from the computer and out into the communities and working UNDER the orders of organzations that ARE doing the concrete work of build and repair?

        Or are our words really just toooo valuable to the world to go a little more unsaid.

        •  The fact is that the Palestinians are in a ghetto (11+ / 0-)

          with their water rationed, their fields stolen, blockaded, brutalized ... Israel had a responsibility toward these people that they utterly failed in, and they are today treating them as the U.S. treated Amerinds (which is the proper word and doesn't get scare quotes).

          •  I'm not familiar with the expression "scare (6+ / 0-)

            quotes." Native American Netroots (for example), a reasonably authoritative Daily Kos group, uses "Native American" as self-description. Since this thread is also in DK, it seems courtesy at minimum to use the terms they choose rather than terms scholarly anthropological associations use.  ...associations whose predominant numbers I would guess to be WASP males, perhaps.

            No one disputes that the situation is bad. No one disputes that to date, other than temporarily, every approach and method Israel has tried has failed.  I might dispute the notion that Israel is the sole cause or even major cause of that failure, as I might dispute the notion that Israel is the sole or even major cause of ongoing violence and suffering in the former Ottoman empire ... except that it's not clear to me whether many in this thread have been on the planet long enough to remember —as educated adults&mdash: the pertinent news reportage from an era when journalism was briefly so damn good it ended the Vietnam War before lapsing again into the mediocrity that preceded it. At this point, we have a globally poor signal-to-noise ratio, thanks in part to technology and in part to the dismantling of international on-site news bureaus for the sake of the profit margin.

            It's also not always clear who in the discussion has longterm firsthand experience living in the region with their lives, their fortunes, and their sacred honor irrevocably invested there and therefore with the largest stake in the brass tacks facts and least in amateur policy arguments.

            Finding repetition of statements already made rather than the least attempt to answer questions asked, is disappointing to encounter. It appears to be evasion and doesn't seem to move the discussion in any productive direction. Even if the questions are mistakenly thought to be rhetorical (they weren't), trying to puzzle things out instead of win arguments sometimes does actually bring new insights. It depends on what the discussants seriously aim to accomplish by their participation, doesn't it?

            •  mettle, your very long comment seems like (8+ / 0-)

              an Israeli spin. Certainly, 1967 was the year when the Israeli attacked most of their neighbors, and even the USS Liberty. Of course, anyone there could have seen the large growth in the infrastructure afterward, that was needed to serve the many new settlers in the newly occupied territories.

              However, since the settlers were later moved from Gaza to the West Bank, have you visited the area? It seems to me that since that time there has been much more destruction of infrastructure than any new wonderful creation. Have you been there in the last couple of years or weeks?

              I have visited many countries, I have participated in war and peace activities. We can all know about difficult issues throughout the world without being an actual visitor. That is what history books, and the internet is all about. We also live in a country where people have the freedom of speech, even though we might be excluded from the MSM.

              War is costly. Peace is priceless!

              by frostbite on Mon Jul 28, 2014 at 06:06:46 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Certainly hyper- pro- Israel can do no wrong crowd (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                SCFrog, frostbite

                liked it.

              •  your comment certainly has merit. (0+ / 0-)

                still, the fact that opinions and experience and background vary regarding any particular issue does not necessarily make any particular disliked position merely "spin".

                outlooks that insist that the only positions that exist are polarized ones, that no other positions or views are real and therefore every statement made can rightly be categorized as one extreme or the other, are outlooks that would label their own pole as valid and the other as "spin".

                a more substantial question is whether any good can be accomplished toward peace by round after round of debate in which polarity is the operating principle, and brevity is actually believed to be the soul of wit.

                what more or new might perhaps be accomplish instead by exploratory discussion, by expanded vision via receptivity to information not previously available, by increasing one's capacity to learn more widely thru reading material that does not necessarily agree with one's current opinion, and so forth?

        •  Despicable as US treatment of Amerinds has been, (7+ / 0-)

          we never bombed the reservations.
             

          •  and why this "history" (0+ / 0-)

            lesson unless it's to distract from Israel's present barbarism.

          •  That's because... (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            TLS66

            They never launched missiles, terrorist and suicide boomers against us. Duh!

          •  No, you just invented reservations, blanketted (0+ / 0-)

            them with lethal disease-carrying rags & tatters, cut off the water supply (again and again - in recent years installed a gas pipeline across a section of the Navajo nation, stating a necessity for a pair of high metal fences aboveground to demarcate it below, cutting the People's grazing off from their water supply), left them to starve or be shot by any white if they set foot off the rez they had no voice in choosing...

            need i go on? Or just say again, in 200+ years, Americans have yet to solve their own problems. How then do Americans --who cannot even get a rogue political party to abide by the rule of law-- lay claim to expertise in telling other people half the globe away how to solve theirs?

            It's not a rhetorical question. Native Americans are still the demographic with the shortest longevity, highest infant death rate, lowest income, worst available nutrition, and least civil rights in the U.S.

            I can't be bothered to do other people's homework for them, so I suggest that I/P arguers who believe they do have expertise to solve foreign problems can prove their claim to those credentials by solving the problems of Native Americans in as quick the time as I/P arguers seem to be saying they can solve I/P problems.

            Is that possible to do?

          •  That's off target. (0+ / 0-)

            mettle's points below are valid, and you open yourself to Proteus7's retort. Reservations are not a good analogy to the Palestinian territories ... by the time of the reservations, the tribes had been decimated and their leaders all killed.

    •  The phrase is "armed conflict" (8+ / 0-)

      You are correct that in international law, war can only exist between two nation states so there is no such thing as a "war on drugs" or "war on terrorism".

      The First Protocol to the Geneva Conventions was introduced in the 1970s to cover conflicts between a nation state and a "non-state body". It specifically recognizes the right of an occupied people to engage in liberation struggles. Neither Israel nor the USA have signed this Protocol. Israel for example refuses to call or treat those it has captured in this conflict as PoWs in much the same way the USA refuses to acknowledge the status of those in Guantanamo.  Nevertheless, they are legally bound by it as it is regarded as International Law.

      One of the strongest criticisms of the USA is its failure to either sign or ratify various conventions. Others include the Convention on the Rights of the Child.

      "Come to Sochi, visit the gay clubs and play with the bears" - NOT a Russian advertising slogan.

      by Lib Dem FoP on Mon Jul 28, 2014 at 03:45:53 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  It should also be noted that many (0+ / 0-)

        provisions of the First Protocol are believed by the ICRC to have been merged into customary international humanitarian law (and therefore applicable to non-signatories).  Several of the war crimes tribunals have adopted this thinking with regards to certain of the provisions.

        Anyone arguing that there's no difference between the parties is a fucking moron who can simply go to hell. -- kos

        by Its the Supreme Court Stupid on Mon Jul 28, 2014 at 07:46:43 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  Israel is an occupying power (19+ / 0-)

      According to the Geneva Convention. Israel is subject to the prohibitions against collective punishment. And, like it or not, Palestinians have rights under the Geneva Convention to oppose the occupying power.

      How can Republicans say they love America when they hate Americans so very much?

      by Tchrldy on Mon Jul 28, 2014 at 05:41:24 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

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