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View Diary: Gaza: A War Fought Justly? (38 comments)

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  •  The only real difference (7+ / 0-)

    I can grok between Cast Lead and this is that more people are paying attention. And that's a good thing.

    Collective punishment towards its arab population and its neighbors(singling out Lebanese infrastructure for destruction in 2006, bombing Syria repeatedly and unnaccountably, etc) has always been Israeli policy. It's there in their actions. Who gives a flying feck what Israel's military objectives, stated or unstated, are at this point? They've become a genocidal rogue state.

    Where is the new Goldstone report? Hopefully being prepared as we speak. Maybe this time it won't be so masterfully buried. The world community is definitely responding with a louder voice than it ever has before. The leaders who remain belligerent in their 'support' of genocide and terror should be feeling more than uncomfortable in the days to come.

    •  Not genocide (5+ / 0-)

      Israel is not carrying out genocide.  Genocide is:

      - 1.5 million Armenians dead by Turkish hands.
      - 11 million Jews, Catholics and others killed by the Nazis.
      - 1 to 3 million killed by Pol Pot and his regime.
      - Up to 1 million Tibetans killed by China.

      Israel has killed somewhere between 1,000-1,200 Palestinians in the current fighting.  That's a tragedy, and I believe that Israel is using excessive force.  But it's not genocide.  Calling Israel's actions "genocide" is inaccurate and dishonors the victims of true genocide.

      •  Tell that to the dictionary (5+ / 0-)

        http://dictionary.reference.com/...
        gen·o·cide
        [jen-uh-sahyd]  
        noun
        the deliberate and systematic extermination of a national, racial, political, or cultural group

        "He who fights monsters should see to it that he himself does not become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you."

        by Hayate Yagami on Tue Jul 29, 2014 at 09:16:55 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Not genocide under that definition (3+ / 0-)

          Palestinians are not being deliberately or systematically exterminated.  Israel is not trying to exterminate Palestinians.  Israel is trying to destroy rockets, Hamas' ability to fire rockets, and Hamas' tunnels into Israel.  

          Yes, too many non-combatants are being killed.  And yes, I believe that Israel is using excessive force in its efforts to stop the rockets and tunnels.  And yes, I am not convinced that Israel does enough to avoid harming civilians.  But it's still not genocide.  

      •  Yep (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Trobone, JNEREBEL

        If this is 'genocide' what the hell is happening up in Syria?

        I don't know how I'm meant to act with all of you lot. Sometimes I don't try, I just na-na-na-na-na-na-na-na-na-na-na

        by Zornorph on Tue Jul 29, 2014 at 09:22:19 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  It doesn't have anything to do with... (10+ / 0-)

        ...the numbers. Here is OFFICE OF THE UN SPECIAL ADVISER ON THE PREVENTION OF GENOCIDE (OSAPG):

        Genocide is defined in Article 2 of the Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide (1948) as "any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such: killing members of the group; causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group; deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part; imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group; [and] forcibly transferring children of the group to another group."

        Don't tell me what you believe, show me what you do and I will tell you what you believe.

        by Meteor Blades on Tue Jul 29, 2014 at 10:11:38 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Precisely. And that is why (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          UberFubarius

          what is happening in Gaza, while tragic on an unfathomable scale, does NOT constitute genocide.  The key words in that definition are

          committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group
          .

          Lacking proof beyond a reasonable doubt of that intent, the described acts can constitute war crimes, or crimes against humanity.   But, genocide has a very specific definition, one which you have highlighted, MB.  Unfortunately, many around here throw the term around and, what do they use for proof?  "Look at the disproportionality of death".  That may be evidence of a war crime or crime against humanity.  Without a single shred of evidence, or even the suggestion, of intent, the use of the term genocide is entirely inappropriate with respect to what is happening in Gaza.  

          Anyone arguing that there's no difference between the parties is a fucking moron who can simply go to hell. -- kos

          by Its the Supreme Court Stupid on Tue Jul 29, 2014 at 02:33:58 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  so.... you believe (0+ / 0-)

        that Israel is using excessive force?

        That's very humane of you.

        Problem is, I'm left wondering. It's pretty obvious that there is a level of force that would be just fine with you. It would be nice to know what that level might be.

        •  While I'm not him, I do agree that current (0+ / 0-)

          situation do not constitute genocide. Likely a war-crime of collective punishment and/or disproportionate acts, but not genocide.

          As for level of force... suddenly MATH.

          Assuming we should ask Israel to treat Palestinian people to have the same value as Israeli people (Israel should not kill more than 1 Palestinian to save 1 Israeli's life).

          Iron Dome went into operation on 2011.
          In the next near, 2012, 2,221 rockets are fired that resulted in 6 Israeli dead and 45 injured.
          http://en.wikipedia.org/...
          So on average, it takes about 350 rockets to kill 1 Israeli civilian (50 to injure). Before the Iron Dome, it appears to be around 50 rockets per Israeli civilian death.
          So assuming equal value of life, a "proportionate response" from Israel would be to inflict just 1 civilian casualty per 350 rockets destroyed (or 1 injury per 50 rockets destroyed).

          Obvious, a nation is going to value their own citizen more than the other. So let's see how much is Israeli currently "viewing" the relative value of life.

          Using the above value, each rocket results in the death of 0.0029 Israeli (let's round it up a bit for 0.003). Pre-Iron Dome, that's about 0.02.
          Now, the number of rockets destroyed per civilian death is hard to come by, but let's use some later news.
          1. UNRWA found 20 rockets hidden in one of their building.
          2. Latest Israeli strikes on UN building resulted in around 20 civilian dead.

          So, without additional information. Let assume that rockets destroyed/civilian killed is about 1:1. This assumes that the number of civilian killed due to mistake in strikes (strikes that didn't destroy rockets) is balanced out by Israeli strikes that destroyed rockets but didn't kill civilians. The 1:1 seems a bit reasonable, since given the 2012 number that Hamas seem perfectly capable of getting and shooting at least 2000 rockets in a year, and the worst civilian death in a year is around 1000 ~ 2000 (Second Intifada).

          That means that going by pre-Iron Dome standard, Israel values their civilian lives 50x more than Palestinian. Post-Iron Dome, the apparent valuing is around 300x. Of course, given the growing sentiment in Israel to stop the constant shelling, it seems that some Israelis are thinking that trading 300 Palestinian lives for one of theirs might be a bit too much.

          So I guess the question comes down to, is it reasonable for Israel to kill 300 Palestinian civilians to save 1 Israeli civilians (personally, I think that's a bit high).

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