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View Diary: What Motivates Hamas? (60 comments)

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  •  That Hamas might amend its charter (4+ / 0-)
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    sandbox, Zornorph, JNEREBEL, MsShona

    in the future does not alter or negate what is says currently.

    •  also does not answer the question of (4+ / 0-)
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      sandbox, CenPhx, poco, Kevskos

      if the charter is a governance document or if the leadership deviates from it at will?  Any examples on your part that Hamas leadership will not deviate?  The leadership in Jordan seems quite willing to negotiate the terms of the charter.

      However my question put aside those considerations to get to the meat of the matter.  What do you think of the ISIS charter and would ISIS be a better adversary for the IDF to face?  It appears ISIS has fought Hizbullah to a standstill in Syria.

      •  The charter is a document which sets (1+ / 0-)
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        Dr Swig Mcjigger

        forth the goals of Hamas; clearly, Hamas can do things inconsistent with its charter, especially when the alternatives are painful; that does not change its stated goals or make it any less evil.

        ISIS is certainly worse than Hamas.  I'm not sure what you mean by better for the IDF to face.  

        (Note that given ISIS views on Christians, ISIS would likely have massacred more Palestinians in Gaza than Israel has killed.  For that reason, among others, ISIS in particular is an unlikely successor to Hamas if Hamas is destroyed.

        •  simple question: is the IDF better off facing (4+ / 0-)
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          Pilsner, CenPhx, historys mysteries, poco

          Hamas as the elected government of Gaza or would things be better for them if ISIS were the opposition.

          As far as ISIS being the successor, I would point to Iraq where aggrieved Sunnis and former Baathist Party members joined with ISIS to drive out the US supported military due to perceived injustices by the Maliki government.

          Now if Iraqi Sunnis felt sufficiently aggrieved to join with ISIS to drive out Maliki's forces, why do you think the Palestinians in Gaza would feel less aggrieved towards Israelis compared the the outrages Iraqi Sunnis claimed against the Iraqi government?  If the Iraqi Sunnis threw in their lot with ISIS, why do you think, absent Hamas, that the Palestinians would not throw in with ISIS.  Why do you think this IDF's "mowing the grass" is not further radicalizing the Gazan population?

          •  I don't know that Palestinians would feel less (2+ / 0-)
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            FG, Dr Swig Mcjigger

            aggrieved.  But why would they turn to ISIS when there are other radical Palestinian groups such as Islamic Jihad?

            To the extent the Palestinians are engaged in  a national struggle (albeit one with religious overtones), turning to an entity that is explicitly transnational and foreign makes little sense.

            •  Simple answer; if you have ever been engaged (3+ / 0-)
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              historys mysteries, poco, Pilsner

              in business, you know nothing succeeds like success.  Islamic Jihad is largely last year's newspaper.  ISIS has accomplished more, in terms of military conquest, in a few months than Islamic Jihad has in years.  

              While the Palestinians are nationalistic, at the same time, why would they not see life under a caliphate as being better than their current situation?

              If we don't want the Gazans to turn to ISIS or an affiliate, we have to offer them a viable alternative.  Mowing the grass is not a viable alternative

              •  They would not see life under a caliphate (1+ / 0-)
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                as better than their present situation because (i) there is no evidence that ISIS would improve their situation; (ii) at least some Palestinians are women and others are secular and ISIS would make them worse off than they are now;  (iii) to the extent they want an independent state (and they do) joining with ISIS would make them less likely to achieve it; and (iv) to the extent they have any international support joining with ISIS would end it.

                •  so the Palestinians do not want the bombing (0+ / 0-)

                  to stop?  Sorry but I do not know how to discuss things with someone who thinks the Palestinians would not make a deal with the Devil to escape the IDF's periodic "lawn mower".  That someone actually believes this (since we assume all commenters are earnest) is gobsmacking

                  •  How on Earth did you manage to come up with that? (0+ / 0-)

                    Obviously the Palestinians want the bombing to stop.  

                    Two problems with making a deal with the Devil:

                    You have to believe that the Devil can deliver (and it should be blatantly obvious that ISIS can't) and you have to believe that the Devil won't collect.

                    If your argument is actually that eliminating Hamas will, absent a negotiated peace, result eventually in Hamas being replaced by an equally extreme, violent and rejectionist entity, than I agree.

                    If you think ISIS has any chance of being that entity, I disagree for the reasons previously stated.

                •  remember (1+ / 0-)
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                  almost anything would be an improvement to the Gazans, for the love of pete, look at what they are dealing with now.

                  Typically, when popular support swings to the ultra extremists like Boko Haram and ISIS it is because everything else has failed, and the people have nothing, which means nothing to lose, as well.

      •  Hamas political leader (3+ / 0-)
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        CenPhx, poco, Kevskos

        has clearly stated that the Hamas movement would accede to any Peace plan negotiated by the PA, and approved by a referendum of all Palestinians.  

        That is a deviation from their Charter.  

        •  Don't start confusing us with facts (3+ / 0-)
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          CenPhx, poco, Kevskos

          Lots of people here have spent years carefully crafting reality-free opinions and wish to see them flourish here.
          (I am being snarky in case someone's snark meter is on the blink)

        •  Not exactly (3+ / 0-)
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          sandbox, JNEREBEL, Jersey Jon

          He said they would accept a state in the West Bank and Gaza.

          Can you point to the place where he said they would accept a Jewish homeland?  I can't find any acceptance of a "zionist entity."

          •  Absolutely no mention (1+ / 0-)
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            of either of those things, just whatever terms the PA negotiates and approved by a referendum would be respected.  
            Later pronouncements referred to '67 lines and the Arab Peace Plan, but in less specific terms.

            The remain hostile to Zionism, that is clear.  But they state they will respect any negotiated settlement.  I am not saying that is credible, but if you insist on quoting their words as credible when they are hostile, you have to consider this as evidence of a shift, or a willingness to shift.  

            Noteworthy that they have come a lot closer to renouncing prior positions than Israel has.

            Disclaimer:  Hamas is still the suck, and need to be held accountable for their crimes.  

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