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View Diary: CIA Confesses To Spying On Senate Committee (244 comments)

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  •  Duhban, there's no provision in law (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    unfangus, YucatanMan, koNko

    for lifetime appointments other than for Article III judges.  That said, I have no idea why this comment was HR'd.  

    •  Because he was trying to place the (9+ / 0-)

      blame for his fraudulent statement one me. In the words of out illustrious fonder, that is being a dick.

      •  That is being argumentative (0+ / 0-)

        And wrong.  But are we really so hard up for donuts that we have to stretch the definition of "dick" to refer to anyone who happens to annoy us at any given point?

        •  I am quite accustomed to being annoyed. (10+ / 0-)

          This is not just being argumentative. It is making an abusive accusation against another person to avoid responsibility for a clearly fraudulent statement. That goes well beyond ordinary annoyance.  

        •  Jesus man, reread the whole thing (12+ / 0-)

          xhibit A: duhban makes an unsubstantiated claim

          a lot of political appointees are life time ones (0+ / 0-)

          but you know even in cases where it's not a  life time appointments you can not just randomly fire  people. Which is again why we need to keep winning and not sitting out or refusing to act unless our demands are 100% met.

          We just didn't randomly or suddenly end up where we are which is something you and others do not seem capable of accepting. The corollary of that statement of fact is that it's going to take a long time to fix.

          And yes that includes the FUBAR that is US intelligence.

          Der Weg ist das Ziel

          Exhibit B: Diairst politely asks for proof:
          What political appointments are lifetime? n/t (8+ / 0-)

          by Richard Lyon on Thu Jul 31, 2014 at 10:33:53 AM PDT

          Exhibit C: instead of providing proof, or recognizing his mistake, duhban replies with a craptastic passive agressive response:
          I see so you have no argument (1+ / 2-)

          so you're going to repeat yourself?

          Have a good day Richard and thank you for the diary.

          Der Weg ist das Ziel

          “In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.” Terry Pratchett

          by 420 forever on Thu Jul 31, 2014 at 11:42:11 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  We're hard up for donuts 'cos you're being a dick (9+ / 0-)

          uprating non-responsive false accusations which deliberately annoy us. That is what half of duhban's comments are intended to do.

          Duhban has annoyed hundreds of kossacks this year and, whenever people ask him to read more carefully, or respond to advice, or stop spouting blather and insulting those who disagree with him, he "truly doesn't give a fuck."

          Thanks so much, rduran, for jamming community moderation, and enabling duhban to keep trolling and learn nothing.

          "Every man has a right to utter what he thinks truth" Samuel Johnson

          by Brecht on Thu Jul 31, 2014 at 12:50:22 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  121 HRs from January 1 (0+ / 0-)

            So not exactly hundreds.  You've pissed of up to 24 yourself.  BTW, here's some XPath for anyone who wants to do some quick arithmetic on search results:

            sum((//table/tbody/tr/td[5]/text())[number(.) = number(.)])
            
            Personally, I've had nothing but good encounters with dubhan.  He was clearly wrong on the facts here and I told him so.  Still, there was nothing in that comment whatsoever that warranted an HR.
            •  ONLY 121 HRs since January? He's practically a (12+ / 0-)

              saint.

              /eyeroll

              “In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.” Terry Pratchett

              by 420 forever on Thu Jul 31, 2014 at 01:18:24 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  The comment appears innocuous, if you don't bother (8+ / 0-)

              to read the whole thread. Once you do that, it's immediately apparent that duhban opened with ignorance and condescension, and soon advanced to outright dickishness.

              "He was clearly wrong on the facts here and I told him so."
              Indeed. And if you ever get him to step past his habitual petty projections and pigheadedness, and admit that he was wrong and you were right, I'll admit that he owns a bit of a learning curve.

              "Every man has a right to utter what he thinks truth" Samuel Johnson

              by Brecht on Thu Jul 31, 2014 at 01:41:28 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  You mean this? (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                duhban
                or it argues for you not understanding (0+ / 0-)
                what 'life time appointment' means. But who cares about that right? Obama should have swept in and used his magical powers to undo 40 years of GOP dominance?

                I can sympathize with your desire but not the unreasonableness of it.

                That was in response to a comment that questioned President Obama's intentions where it concerned Bush era conversions of political positions to civil service ones.  I think dubhan inartful by bringing up life time appointments, but he is correct in the sense that there are political offices that are not statutorily term limited.  That doesn't change the fact that any political appointee can be dismissed by the President, and it confuses the issue of the conversions with the issue of fixed term vs. open ended and Article III lifetime appointments.

                I'd love to know what is condescending about "I can sympathize with your desire but not the unreasonableness of it."

                •  Don't be disingenuous, rduran. At least, I don't (7+ / 0-)

                  think you're actually a fool. But perhaps I overestimated you.

                  Duhban already admitted to his ignorance in this dispute:

                  "I believe that is what I am talking about. I mean I'll be honest my grasp on this area is weak but unless I am completely wrong . . ."
                  (To give him credit where due, it's nice to see him admit his fallibility. I'm not sure why someone would charge into a dispute without any actual knowledge to back up their bluster, though.)

                  If you'd truly "love to know what is condescending", then at least read the whole comment you just quoted:

                  "or it argues for you not understanding what 'life time appointment' means. But who cares about that right? Obama should have swept in and used his magical powers to undo 40 years of GOP dominance?

                  I can sympathize with your desire but not the unreasonableness of it."

                  (How would duhban know what's reasonable, when he has no grasp of the facts he's disputing? Given which, his snark is out of order.)

                  "Every man has a right to utter what he thinks truth" Samuel Johnson

                  by Brecht on Thu Jul 31, 2014 at 02:14:13 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Considering that you came out swinging (2+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    duhban, emelyn

                    in your first reply to me in this thread--an attitude you continue to express here--I assumed you'd find those remarks rather innocuous.  That's unless you find your own comments out of order, or you think "fool" is somehow less insulting than "unreasonable" or "not understanding."

                    •  Why don't you put as much effort (3+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      Richard Lyon, 420 forever, JVolvo

                      Into chastising duhban, who clearly provoked this?

                      You seem hell bent on deflecting blame to others.

                      Mind explaining exactly what motivates you to do so?

                      Because the only reason I can imagine is there some sort of tribal instinct or other reflex action at work.

                      Since you raised I/P diaries as an example, do you also defend the trolls in those diaries with the same reasoning? Other people are being mean to them? Or their wee-wee's are too short so we should cut them a break?

                      •  What am I, your dad? (2+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        emelyn, duhban

                        Just stop having donut tantrums.  Is that so hard?

                        •  OK, so you're confused. (0+ / 0-)

                          You can't recognize your own kids and you seem to be mistaking me for someone having "donut tantrums".

                          Is it possible you intended to post this remark to duhban, who does drop donuts frequently, and seems to get even more?

                          Because, unless you start hallucinating, you won't find any HR's from me in this diary or anywhere else on Daily Kos since I consider it childish and ineffective, so never do it.

                          I'm an adult. If I strongly disapprove of something I have the option to say so and often do.

                          If you have a photo of your kids, post it and we can help you find them.

                  •  Hey Jazz-loving Brecht with all those LPs (0+ / 0-)

                    Sorry about the I/P and "help" desk bullshit.

                    Check your kosmail messages --->

                    "If you're in a coalition and you're comfortable, you know it's not a broad enough coalition /= GTFO" Dr. Bernice Johnson Reagon + JVolvo

                    by JVolvo on Sat Aug 02, 2014 at 06:08:47 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

            •  121 HRs in 7 months? You think that's anywhere (5+ / 0-)

              near a reasonable amount?

              Come on, rduran.  Why are you playing this game?

              "If you're in a coalition and you're comfortable, you know it's not a broad enough coalition /= GTFO" Dr. Bernice Johnson Reagon + JVolvo

              by JVolvo on Thu Jul 31, 2014 at 06:12:28 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Beats me (0+ / 0-)

                Timaeus has 92.  

                •  I have maybe 60 in 8.5 years. Most of those (0+ / 0-)

                  from 2 comments - both were easy to misinterpret and/or intentionally misinterpret in order to be outraged and toss the donuts.

                  Timaeus has been banned twice and has received several other warnings and/or Time Outs.  So probably not the best UID for comparison.

                  FYI, dub had 242 HRs from 112 different kossacks in the 11.3 months from Jan 1 - Dec 9 of 2013.

                  So this 1/2 year's tally of 121 HRs is no aberration.  In fact it looks like he's right on schedule.

                  Long term patterns of behaviour are pretty easy to suss out.  Dub seems an odd choice to stick up for.

                  My 0.02

                  "If you're in a coalition and you're comfortable, you know it's not a broad enough coalition /= GTFO" Dr. Bernice Johnson Reagon + JVolvo

                  by JVolvo on Fri Aug 01, 2014 at 11:49:20 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

            •  You are really too funny (0+ / 0-)
              121 HRs from January 1.

              So not exactly hundreds.  You've pissed of up to 24 yourself.

              Don't quit your day job quite yet.

              OK, here's one:

              dubhan. rduran. ____ .

              What comes next in that series?

              Fill-in the blank.

              Enjoy!

          •  brecht (0+ / 0-)

            you and your group even before it started shrinking were never 'hundreds of kossacks'. As usual you over inflate both your importance and scope.

            Der Weg ist das Ziel

            by duhban on Thu Jul 31, 2014 at 01:30:29 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

        •  This is a long-standing and well-worn pattern of (6+ / 0-)

          behaviour by this poster:

          Posting opinion as fact.  When his opinion is not supported by any real-world data, he moves the goalposts or refuses to address his error.  If pressed, he ignores or side-steps away from his original comment while casting aspersions on his cruel, cruel reality-based tormentors.
          He's been doing this for 20+ months.

          So he racks up HRs from a vast # of kossacks who are so very tired of his derail, disrupt and distract game.

          If it were just nya-nya-nya crap it would be easy to ignore ("Yankees are too the best team").  Stupid, not harmful.

          When he makes misleading or outright flat wrong statements on important issues (eg 'lifetime departmental or civil servant appointments') he gets pushback.  Since that rarely if ever stops him from his schtick, he sometimes gets HRd. I think he's @ 420 and counting...

          "If you're in a coalition and you're comfortable, you know it's not a broad enough coalition /= GTFO" Dr. Bernice Johnson Reagon + JVolvo

          by JVolvo on Thu Jul 31, 2014 at 06:05:03 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  This user is consistently trollish (0+ / 0-)

          And repeatedly uses the same tactics on display here to hijack threads.

          According to Markos' definition, his behavior is dickish, and according to the current version of the ToS, what he does certainly qualifies for HR's for those so inclined, and the serial nature of his offensive behavior qualifies for banning.

          So I'd suggest, if you are unfamiliar with his methods, that you don't go too far out on that limb defending him.

          What is really clear on this thread is he made an erroneous claim he refuses to back up (very typical) and instead is using it to take shots at the people questioning him (also typical).

          But I never HR anyone. If people want to make fools of themselves acting like anti-social dicks, I say, give them the opportunity and then ignore them.

          •  Okay, you don't like dubhan. (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            duhban

            Go you.

            •  Just stating facts (0+ / 0-)

              Having numerous encounters with him, including his persistent trolling in my diaries, I'm perfectly willing to stand on his record and mine.

              Up-thread I suggested to you that you do not go too far defending this user, which gives you the benefit of doubt whether you understand WHY so many people on this tread and this site find him an obnoxious nuisance.

              Well, it could be he's the "World's Greatest Dad" and we are just a bunch of jealous assholes or some such.

              But it isn't. Search his history and educate yourself.

              And if you still want to go to the end of the world defending him, please yourself.

              "Company you keep."

              Yes, there is a reason I do not reply to him directly: been there, done that, it was neither enlightening or ennobling, doesn't bear repeating.

              Enjoy your time. Nothing personal.

              •  I've seen his history (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                duhban

                and I've compared it with your recent interjections in my conversations.  You may have noticed I didn't reply to most of them.  On reflection, you may understand why.

                You guys don't like each other.  Fine.  That's your problem.  His comment was innocuous and the HRs were unwarranted.  Deal with it.

                •  Hadn't noticed. (0+ / 0-)

                  But don't take it personally, every discussion has an end and I accept that; we are all volunteers here.

                  I'm OK with disliking duban; I don't expect to like everyone and don't agonize over total strangers beyond a point.

                  He could change his behavior and fewer people would dislike him but he's in control of that not me, so that's his problem, actually, not mine.

                  On many occasions I've tried to overlook his rudeness and anti-social behavior when I thought these was a topic or point of discussion to be had, but the guy is so antisocial in his behavior that I finally gave up.

                  As will you, eventually, I suppose. Good luck on your noble quest.

                  Count the people on this thread echoing the problems with him. We didn't start there, a process led to this point we are at now. We are not crazy and imagining things, we have ample experience with this person and the broken record that keeps repeating. It becomes tiresome.

                  And note his passive-aggressive response: "your group".

                  And the victim card, always the victim card.

                  Repeat that often enough and it becomes self-fulfilling.

                  Sincerely, good luck with your "project", Mr. duhban.

                  Enough said. Look how much disruption and wasted time already.

                  See you around. Don't let this meta bullshit spoil your day, it's really not worth it.

    •  It was another lame hijack attempt from duhban (11+ / 0-)

      Not a particularly good one either.

      “In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.” Terry Pratchett

      by 420 forever on Thu Jul 31, 2014 at 11:34:28 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  see my reply to Mike S (0+ / 0-)

      Der Weg ist das Ziel

      by duhban on Thu Jul 31, 2014 at 01:28:14 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Out of curiosity (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        duhban

        Are you referring to the line between offices which are statutorily term limited and ones that are not?

        •  I believe that is what I am talking about (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          rduran

          I mean I'll be honest my grasp on this area is weak but unless I am completely wrong there are offices and terms that can exceed a single president's term and some of those include jobs where in people can have them practically for a life time.

          Now are those the same as an out and out life time appointment? I would concede that obviously no that's not the case. But they still exist as after effects long after whatever president installed them directly or indirectly. And that does not even get into how those people often are in charge of the overall approach and philosophy of the departments they head.

          I hope that makes sense.

          Der Weg ist das Ziel

          by duhban on Thu Jul 31, 2014 at 01:41:07 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Hoover and Rickover being prime examples (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            duhban, NoMoreLies

            In that case, you might want to explain the confusion with Lyon.  He's good people.

            •  Lyon is too angry to care (0+ / 0-)

              hell he can't even seem to read that the comment he is calling me a dick for thanked him for the diary and wished him a good day.

              I am glad that I was able to get my point across to at least one person though and that my overall understanding was not wrong.

              Thank you for that rduran

              Der Weg ist das Ziel

              by duhban on Thu Jul 31, 2014 at 01:49:18 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Maybe it's time to make amends (0+ / 0-)

                Honestly, I think people are way too quick to escalate disagreement and argument into insults and donut tossing.  I stepped in because you hadn't insulted anyone or broken any rules and was making a substantive--if muddled--point.  That said, Lyons is still good people.  Talk to him.

                •  rduran you're a good person (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  rduran

                  really you are but I truly feel there is no making amends at this point because to truly do so would involve Lyons humbling himself with an apology to me. And quite honestly I'll sooner expect a personal visit from President Obama than that.

                  It's unfortunate but it is what it is and I have no desire to put my hand halfway out fully expecting it to be slapped. That's is the reason why I didn't even really bother to engage at all in the first place. At this point I expect nothing less than another round of dubhan bashing while they call in all their friends to rec up their noxious comments and wag their finger at me. So I'll let them have that but as I said at least in this case I know I'm not crazy.

                  You take care and truly thank you.

                  Der Weg ist das Ziel

                  by duhban on Thu Jul 31, 2014 at 02:01:30 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

      •  hey, I was wondering about this.... (4+ / 0-)

        I thought it might be entertaining to google "duhban" and this came up...

        Mike S (duhban) - Pinterest
        That's a coincidence, right?

        Dear NSA: I am only joking.

        by Shahryar on Thu Jul 31, 2014 at 05:13:32 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  rofl (0+ / 0-)

          you all are a riot, is this your group's next brillant accusation?

          Der Weg ist das Ziel

          by duhban on Thu Jul 31, 2014 at 05:38:52 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  have you ever had a warning or a timeout? (7+ / 0-)

            or lost mojo? Just curious, and asking seriously.

            Dear NSA: I am only joking.

            by Shahryar on Thu Jul 31, 2014 at 05:41:24 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  Wow (5+ / 6-)

            Nice URL...

             photo sockittomeeee_zps9201bb31.png

            "Counting on people having nowhere else to go is the logic of a slumlord."--Wolf10

            by lunachickie on Thu Jul 31, 2014 at 06:12:28 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  do you have a point or well anything (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Kasoru

              but a sad vendetta?

              Der Weg ist das Ziel

              by duhban on Thu Jul 31, 2014 at 06:14:27 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  Wow! (n/t) (5+ / 0-)

              "I don't want to run the empire, I want to bring it down!" ~ Dr. Cornel West "...isn't the problem here that the government takes on, arbitrarily and without justification, an adversarial attitude towards its citizenry?" ~ SouthernLiberalinMD

              by gulfgal98 on Thu Jul 31, 2014 at 06:48:18 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  If the people who recced this did it because (5+ / 0-)

              you think that I am actually duhban you really have lost your minds. If you want to look stupid have at it and report me.

              Most of the people taking a hard line against us are firmly convinced that they are the last defenders of civilization... The last stronghold of mother, God, home and apple pie and they're full of shit! David Crosby, Journey Thru the Past.

              by Mike S on Fri Aug 01, 2014 at 12:35:52 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  The screenshot sure does look damning n/t (0+ / 0-)

                "Counting on people having nowhere else to go is the logic of a slumlord."--Wolf10

                by lunachickie on Fri Aug 01, 2014 at 03:22:56 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  It's not (8+ / 0-)

                  Except that in your posting it, you violate site rules about outing people, which is, of course, potentially bannable.

                  Moreover, you are incorrect in your assessment. I know that for a fact.

                  Click the ♥ to join us on the Black Kos front porch to review news & views written from a black pov - everyone is welcome.

                  by mahakali overdrive on Fri Aug 01, 2014 at 12:54:32 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Outing who? (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    Shahryar

                    A "couple" of anonymous names on the Internet?

                    Seriously?

                    "Counting on people having nowhere else to go is the logic of a slumlord."--Wolf10

                    by lunachickie on Fri Aug 01, 2014 at 10:38:08 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  So you weren't drunk last night and still think (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      indubitably

                      you're onto something? That's a Michelle Bachman kind of stupid. You should get a grip because you are making yourself look like an idiot.

                      Most of the people taking a hard line against us are firmly convinced that they are the last defenders of civilization... The last stronghold of mother, God, home and apple pie and they're full of shit! David Crosby, Journey Thru the Past.

                      by Mike S on Fri Aug 01, 2014 at 11:46:54 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  And now you're name-calling and insulting? (0+ / 0-)

                        OK, thanks!

                        "Counting on people having nowhere else to go is the logic of a slumlord."--Wolf10

                        by lunachickie on Sat Aug 02, 2014 at 07:32:02 AM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  I love people who whine about people being (0+ / 0-)

                          mean to them after the act like a-holes.

                          Most of the people taking a hard line against us are firmly convinced that they are the last defenders of civilization... The last stronghold of mother, God, home and apple pie and they're full of shit! David Crosby, Journey Thru the Past.

                          by Mike S on Sat Aug 02, 2014 at 07:36:55 AM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  Simply pointing out your actions (0+ / 0-)

                            is not "whining". If I was worried about "people being mean" to me, my wittle fee-fees would have been butt-hurt as of yesterday morning in these threads.

                            "Counting on people having nowhere else to go is the logic of a slumlord."--Wolf10

                            by lunachickie on Sat Aug 02, 2014 at 07:41:03 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  I am simply pointing out that what I thought was (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            indubitably, duhban

                            drunk idiocy turned out to be what you actually believed. It takes a special kind of child to believe that I am duhban.

                            Most of the people taking a hard line against us are firmly convinced that they are the last defenders of civilization... The last stronghold of mother, God, home and apple pie and they're full of shit! David Crosby, Journey Thru the Past.

                            by Mike S on Sat Aug 02, 2014 at 08:34:16 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Nonsense (0+ / 0-)

                            starting with the fact that the post in question has a time-stamp of the night before last.

                            Keep protesting, though. Mr. Shakespeare made a very pithy, dead-on comment about that, once, long ago...

                            "Counting on people having nowhere else to go is the logic of a slumlord."--Wolf10

                            by lunachickie on Sat Aug 02, 2014 at 08:45:08 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  It would be funny if it weren't so typically (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            mahakali overdrive, indubitably

                            pathetic. The original post was the night before last. Your doubling down on the idiocy was what I responded to but being you you actually want to act as if that never happened.

                            Most of the people taking a hard line against us are firmly convinced that they are the last defenders of civilization... The last stronghold of mother, God, home and apple pie and they're full of shit! David Crosby, Journey Thru the Past.

                            by Mike S on Sat Aug 02, 2014 at 08:58:12 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  I just said that (0+ / 0-)

                            You:

                            The original post was the night before last.
                            Me:
                            starting with the fact that the post in question has a time-stamp of the night before last.
                            So your point was....?

                            "Counting on people having nowhere else to go is the logic of a slumlord."--Wolf10

                            by lunachickie on Sat Aug 02, 2014 at 09:03:04 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  I honestly can't figure out if you are stupid (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            indubitably, duhban

                            or just disingenuous. You either know that the next sentence was my point which makes you Hannitty level disingenuous or you don't which makes you Palin level stupid.

                            Most of the people taking a hard line against us are firmly convinced that they are the last defenders of civilization... The last stronghold of mother, God, home and apple pie and they're full of shit! David Crosby, Journey Thru the Past.

                            by Mike S on Sat Aug 02, 2014 at 09:21:01 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Heh (0+ / 0-)

                            please, by all means, keep up this inane dialog--because speech patterns and word usage!

                            "Counting on people having nowhere else to go is the logic of a slumlord."--Wolf10

                            by lunachickie on Sat Aug 02, 2014 at 09:31:06 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  That you don't see how idiotic that is (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            indubitably, duhban

                            says all anyone needs to know about you. You make Palin look like a friggin genius. You are the only fool that thinks I am duhban and I am just loving the way you trippled down on it. Even the group that likes you has abandoned this idiocy because to anyone with a working brain cell it is patently obvious that I am not duhban.

                            Most of the people taking a hard line against us are firmly convinced that they are the last defenders of civilization... The last stronghold of mother, God, home and apple pie and they're full of shit! David Crosby, Journey Thru the Past.

                            by Mike S on Sat Aug 02, 2014 at 11:15:50 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Like I said (0+ / 0-)

                            keep it up.
                             

                            "Counting on people having nowhere else to go is the logic of a slumlord."--Wolf10

                            by lunachickie on Sat Aug 02, 2014 at 11:30:48 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  heh (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            duhban

                            I'm trying to give you the opportunity to prove it. The more I write the more proof you have, right?

                            Oh wait...

                            Most of the people taking a hard line against us are firmly convinced that they are the last defenders of civilization... The last stronghold of mother, God, home and apple pie and they're full of shit! David Crosby, Journey Thru the Past.

                            by Mike S on Sat Aug 02, 2014 at 11:42:18 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Now why would you do (0+ / 0-)

                            that, since you already claim it's not true?  
                             

                            I'm trying to give you the opportunity to prove it.
                            Seriously, you should just let this go, "Mike S." You're protesting way too much about this now-two-days old blog post.

                            "Counting on people having nowhere else to go is the logic of a slumlord."--Wolf10

                            by lunachickie on Sat Aug 02, 2014 at 12:07:08 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Was ills called. (0+ / 0-)

                            Since Sarah Palin doesn't spend as much time up there they want to know if you will agree to be their village idiot.

                            Most of the people taking a hard line against us are firmly convinced that they are the last defenders of civilization... The last stronghold of mother, God, home and apple pie and they're full of shit! David Crosby, Journey Thru the Past.

                            by Mike S on Sat Aug 02, 2014 at 05:18:04 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Wasilla Alaska. (0+ / 0-)

                            Most of the people taking a hard line against us are firmly convinced that they are the last defenders of civilization... The last stronghold of mother, God, home and apple pie and they're full of shit! David Crosby, Journey Thru the Past.

                            by Mike S on Sat Aug 02, 2014 at 05:18:39 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  So then you really didn't mean what you said (0+ / 0-)

                            earlier? No wonder you didn't answer my question:

                             

                            Now why would you do that, since you already claim it's not true?  
                             
                               I'm trying to give you the opportunity to prove it.
                            But hey, you didn't hesitate to revert back to insults! How charmingly predictable.

                            "Counting on people having nowhere else to go is the logic of a slumlord."--Wolf10

                            by lunachickie on Sat Aug 02, 2014 at 06:47:12 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  I guess sarcasm doesn't register for the truly (0+ / 0-)

                            stupid.

                            Most of the people taking a hard line against us are firmly convinced that they are the last defenders of civilization... The last stronghold of mother, God, home and apple pie and they're full of shit! David Crosby, Journey Thru the Past.

                            by Mike S on Sun Aug 03, 2014 at 09:17:33 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  I guess you just can't resist (0+ / 0-)

                            reverting to insults. Yes, that's truly stupid...

                            "Counting on people having nowhere else to go is the logic of a slumlord."--Wolf10

                            by lunachickie on Sun Aug 03, 2014 at 04:06:39 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

              •  Maybe you should send Pinterest (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                shaharazade, lunachickie

                A take-down request.

                And change all your passwords just for safety.

                Could be someone hacking your accounts and posing as duhban to destroy your reputation on the internet.

                Could be the CIA. Or NSA. Or GCHQ - they hacked Linked-In, Pinterest would be a pushover for such pros.

                Seriously dude, ignore that kind of stuff and the next thing you know you could be getting bank transfers from Nigeria.

              •  And ... (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                shaharazade, lunachickie

                There are other possibilities you seem to be overlooking.

                Like duhban impersonating you.

                Or parallel blogospheres.

                Or maybe a multiple personality disorder thingy.

                But that page is the real deal, so if it ain't you, better get out the password manager and start purging.

                •  I'm not on Pinterest. (6+ / 0-)

                  I've been here since movable type was the platform. Last night when I saw this it was funny. Now it is beyond pathetic.

                  Most of the people taking a hard line against us are firmly convinced that they are the last defenders of civilization... The last stronghold of mother, God, home and apple pie and they're full of shit! David Crosby, Journey Thru the Past.

                  by Mike S on Fri Aug 01, 2014 at 07:10:24 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Based on the seemingly completely (4+ / 0-)

                    different the two choose to participate/rec, I dont think it could be argued they are the same person.

                    If you stand for nothing you will fall for anything.

                    by LieparDestin on Fri Aug 01, 2014 at 08:46:13 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                  •  C'mon, how many people named (5+ / 0-)

                    Mike have the letter S and the start of the last name?  Obviously, you MUST be one and the same person!

                    Anyone arguing that there's no difference between the parties is a fucking moron who can simply go to hell. -- kos

                    by Its the Supreme Court Stupid on Fri Aug 01, 2014 at 12:36:32 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                  •  What is pathetic (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    lunachickie

                    Is the amount of disruption caused by duhban and the amount of time wasted debating it. Not sure why you're going so far out on a limb to defend a serial thread-jacker, but that's your prerogative. But you might consider what a waste this thread became with this meta bullshit. We should all know better.

                    I tried to interject a little snark here but that was misdirected I suppose.

                    But, seriously, someone has created the account linked. Not the end of the world, but if "Mike S" is important to you, you can request a take-down, most sites get a lot of that stuff and will investigate and lock the account if they cannot validate the user. Daily Kos probably gets at least 50 bogus accounts per day if not more.

                    Take care. Persistence.

                    •  Not defending duhban. (0+ / 0-)

                      Why would I request a takedown of something that has nothing to do with me from a site that I have nothing to do with?

                      Most of the people taking a hard line against us are firmly convinced that they are the last defenders of civilization... The last stronghold of mother, God, home and apple pie and they're full of shit! David Crosby, Journey Thru the Past.

                      by Mike S on Sun Aug 03, 2014 at 07:59:34 AM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                  •  What is pathetic (0+ / 0-)

                    Is the amount of disruption caused by duhban and the amount of time wasted debating it. Not sure why you're going so far out on a limb to defend a serial thread-jacker, but that's your prerogative. But you might consider what a waste this thread became with this meta bullshit. We should all know better.

                    I tried to interject a little snark here but that was misdirected I suppose.

                    But, seriously, someone has created the account linked. Not the end of the world, but if "Mike S" is important to you, you can request a take-down, most sites get a lot of that stuff and will investigate and lock the account if they cannot validate the user. Daily Kos probably gets at least 50 bogus accounts per day if not more.

                    Take care. Persistence.

                •  I am impersonating Mike S? (5+ / 0-)

                  To what purpose? Because I want to get banned?

                  Here's a simpler, more logical and probably correct explanation

                  Someone else made the account just to try and make another 'case' against me.

                  Der Weg ist das Ziel

                  by duhban on Fri Aug 01, 2014 at 09:43:32 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  I agree. The accusation is clearly bogus and (6+ / 0-)

                    it's unfair to both you and user #273. I'm one of your biggest opponents but I have no tolerance for bullshit and I'm especially opposed to outing attempts.

                    I have no idea who created the page, but the effort to use it against you and Mike S is a joke.  I've said the same on the help desk thread that Mike S opened.

                    I don't think I've ever recommended one of your comments before but there's a first time for everything.

                  •  I think it qualifies as off-site stalking (7+ / 0-)

                    and is really something I would report because it's super-creepy, and if it were me, I would not be pleased.

                    Neither would elfling or Markos.

                    Just back to the DK after a three week hiatus and underwhelmed to find this.

                    The original post with the photo is a privacy violation or else it's a hoax, and so it ought to be removed.

                    Also, anyone who knows you knows you wouldn't be on pinterest with one board called "things to cook." That's parodic.

                    Click the ♥ to join us on the Black Kos front porch to review news & views written from a black pov - everyone is welcome.

                    by mahakali overdrive on Fri Aug 01, 2014 at 12:56:57 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                  •  Are you saying some (2+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    Shahryar, lunachickie

                    third party just thought it was funny or set up this account to use both your and Mike S's usernames in conjunction on Pinertest?  Your ego is not your amigo. Who would do this? The gang you  refer to  thje people here who object to your constant derailing and trolling? Get a grip your not that important and really just an annoyance and a good old fashioned mystery as to why you get to skate through the so called community moderation unscathed by the slings and arrows we peons all suffer through. I bet you love this this ego feed.  

                    •  Really? (4+ / 0-)

                      So you want to pretend the year long crusade by a number of people that include people you hang around didn't happen?

                      This isn't about ego.

                      I
                      do
                      no
                      know
                      whose
                      account
                      that
                      is.

                      It's not mine. So I don't know how, whom or why.

                      I will say that even if it was mine that would still be outing. There's really no 'winning' on this. Your  friend overstepped and badly.

                      As to the rest of it? All I can say is I don't want anything to do with it. This whole thing has gone from people stalking me to this happening. It's creepy and the longer I think about it the more I feel that's putting it mildly.

                      Der Weg ist das Ziel

                      by duhban on Fri Aug 01, 2014 at 08:45:43 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  It's only outing if it's YOU to begin with n/t (1+ / 0-)

                        "Counting on people having nowhere else to go is the logic of a slumlord."--Wolf10

                        by lunachickie on Fri Aug 01, 2014 at 10:43:59 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  wow (2+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          indubitably, mahakali overdrive

                          you know I was really trying to be calm and centered and even forgiving about this but since you have admitted this was about outing me I just don't care.

                          You deserve to be banned for this.

                          It's really that simple. It's not my account and I don't know who thought it was a good idea to make it. I'll leave that to others but since you admit you want to out me then I think it's time you moved on. You obviously care more about this absurd vendetta than anything else and your actions speak to someone utterly convinced that the 'righteousness' of your actions than someone worried about any possible consequences to your actions.

                          By sheer luck on your end it appears you did no harm. But having done this once you obviously will do it again and next time you might really harm someone.

                          But you really don't care about that, do you?

                          And no I will no longer reply to you because this has become profoundly toxic and ugly. Things I have never wanted to be part of. So I simply will wish you well on your journey on the path of life.

                          Der Weg ist das Ziel

                          by duhban on Fri Aug 01, 2014 at 11:03:29 PM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                        •  It's outing and it's harassment (4+ / 0-)

                          And the harassment alone needs to get a whole mess of you banned, no reprieve possible.

                          •  It's not "outing" in the sense used by (0+ / 0-)

                             rules of this blog. These people aren't "famous" and had their anonymity breached. And since "duhban" denies it, it's not "outing" at all.

                            Of course, it begs the question "what has actually happened to some of the rules of this blog?" Which is why it was posted to begin with. "Mike S." is common as a name. "Duhban" is not.

                            "Counting on people having nowhere else to go is the logic of a slumlord."--Wolf10

                            by lunachickie on Sat Aug 02, 2014 at 07:29:07 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Baloney (6+ / 0-)

                            Quit making excuses for your atrociously immature behavior. It ain't gonna fly.

                            Yeesh, what is this, MySpace??

                          •  Sorry, but it's not an "excuse" (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Shahryar

                            See this link.

                            Revealing the *real identity* or other personal information of a registered user who has not him- or herself made that identity known at Daily Kos or otherwise given permission for such information to be publicly revealed will result in summary banning. Among other things, such revelations include, but are not limited to, phone numbers, addresses, including email addresses not publicly available at Daily Kos, places of employment or clients, gender, sexual orientation, and the identities of other family members.
                            1) "Duhban" denies that "Mike S." is his "real identity".

                            2) No personal information was "outed"--it's a fucking anonymous Pinterest page

                            3) There are no phone numbers, addresses, including email addresses not publicly available at Daily Kos, places of employment or clients, gender, sexual orientation, and the identities of other family members. Unless the two of them are RELATED.

                            Do carry on, please.

                            "Counting on people having nowhere else to go is the logic of a slumlord."--Wolf10

                            by lunachickie on Sat Aug 02, 2014 at 07:53:44 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  That does not excuse your behavior (3+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            mahakali overdrive, deedogg, duhban

                            And, at this point, I am strongly advocating that each and every one of you involved in this witchhunt on dubhan be banned, not just for harassment, but for completely disrupting this site.

                            Your behavior is reprehensible, and that you refuse to acknowledge or cannot see that speaks volumes.

                          •  My behavior is consistent (0+ / 0-)

                            with pushing back on a poster who thinks it's perfectly fine to disrupt discussion after discussion on this blog.  

                            Again, let the readers decide. Why do you have such a problem with that?

                            "Counting on people having nowhere else to go is the logic of a slumlord."--Wolf10

                            by lunachickie on Sat Aug 02, 2014 at 08:07:30 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Because I am sick to death of it, that's why (4+ / 0-)

                            And I am far from the only one sick to death of it.

                            Explain, please, exactly how hounding an annoying poster from one end of the site to another and posting false accusations (because this is far from the first false accusation I've seen against dubhan) moves your case forward? Instead, it is backfiring, and badly.

                            Explain how such immaturity is effective pushback. It looks like nothing more than the mean girls antics seen in high school cafeterias all across the country.

                            I don't believe you or anyone in this gang of harassers for that reason alone.

                            If he annoys you so much, IGNORE HIM.

                          •  So you want to speak for everyone else, then? (0+ / 0-)

                            Well, good luck with that.

                            "Counting on people having nowhere else to go is the logic of a slumlord."--Wolf10

                            by lunachickie on Sat Aug 02, 2014 at 08:16:02 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Evasion is a poor cover (3+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            mahakali overdrive, mikidee, duhban

                            You are a part of what I have had to conclude is a gang. Your gang is bullying a member of this site. Whether you or I agree with this member is inconsequential. What is of consequence is your behavior and the behavior of your cohorts, which is glaringly immature.

                            You are being ignored and avoided by a substantial number of people on this site, and this I know for a fact. I am no longer ignoring you because you have finally annoyed me far, far beyond any annoyance I have ever felt about dubhan. I am sick of finding a few extra moments to try and read this site, only to run into another case of Mean Girl Warfare---and, once again, I know for a fact, I am far from the only one. And, yes, I know this for a fact.

                            Therefore, I am advocating for making the harassment and false accusations made by you and your fellow members of The Mean Girls bannable offenses. Nothing else will stop you because it is apparent there is no willingness or ability to acknowledge your own behavior.

                            Keep evading.

                          •  asdf (0+ / 0-)
                            You are being ignored and avoided by a substantial number of people on this site,
                            There you go, speaking for others again.

                            "Counting on people having nowhere else to go is the logic of a slumlord."--Wolf10

                            by lunachickie on Sat Aug 02, 2014 at 08:37:28 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  4chan from the looks of it (3+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            sviscusi, deedogg, duhban

                            and moderation ought to have sincerely stepped in.

                            I register my disappointment on this one.

                            Click the ♥ to join us on the Black Kos front porch to review news & views written from a black pov - everyone is welcome.

                            by mahakali overdrive on Sat Aug 02, 2014 at 09:35:48 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  . (0+ / 0-)

                            "Counting on people having nowhere else to go is the logic of a slumlord."--Wolf10

                            by lunachickie on Sat Aug 02, 2014 at 10:10:15 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Is that the net equivalent of dick-slinging or (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            duhban

                            something?

                            You've read my reply. Congratulations! I'm so proud of you and that you have bothered to reply with that sardonically understated yet purposefully emphatic solitary period. It resounds with style, wit, and wisdom all at once. Next, you will get the hang of exclamation points and question marks too... just keep practicing.

                            Click the ♥ to join us on the Black Kos front porch to review news & views written from a black pov - everyone is welcome.

                            by mahakali overdrive on Sat Aug 02, 2014 at 03:45:06 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                    •  Given what I've seen of these people (4+ / 0-)

                      I absolutely believe they have the time, the animus and the maturity level to set up fake accounts on Pinterest or elsewhere just to add fuel to this ridiculous campaign.

                      I, in return, am starting my own campaign, and that is to make it a bannable offense to harass posters the way that dubhan has been for months now.

                      Grow up, people.

                    •  A better question would be (2+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      duhban, mahakali overdrive

                      how was the page found?

                      I find it hard to believe that someone just manged to stumble across a pinterest page that has nothing but a single cooking recipe.  They were either googling user names of people here looking for some type of dirt or created it themselves.  Unless there's a third, innocent way, it pretty scary.

            •  Interesting post. (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              420 forever, shaharazade, lunachickie

              That's quite a recipe, all the noodles in one pan.

              •  Which is why it looks fake to me (4+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                duhban, deedogg, indubitably, sviscusi

                Which means that it was created, intentionally, to fuck with this poster, plain and simple.

                Sad.

                Also, potentially bannable if it's NOT a hoax.

                Damning noodles indeed.

                Click the ♥ to join us on the Black Kos front porch to review news & views written from a black pov - everyone is welcome.

                by mahakali overdrive on Fri Aug 01, 2014 at 01:07:57 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  don't be absurd (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  shaharazade, lunachickie

                  that's CT.

                  Dear NSA: I am only joking.

                  by Shahryar on Fri Aug 01, 2014 at 04:19:06 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  So if it is real (4+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    duhban, indubitably, Sylv, sviscusi

                    then the poster should be banned for attempting to out the user.

                    A hoax is the only other alternative. I can think of no third possibility that could give rise to this account. Can you?

                    Moreover, it looks like a fake Pinterest account since it has ONE PIN that is completely generic and parodic of one.

                    Occam's fucking razor.

                    And no, duhban isn't the same poster as Mike S. Did you actually get on board with THAT C/T? You know, the one the original poster spewed when she tried to out duhban's identity through fallacious means by using an offsite screen capture which is categorically verboten and actually very creepy.

                    Would you like people to do that to your so-called IRL, offsite accounts? Or would you like them to fake them and then post them and then attribute them to you? Which one of those scenarios is acceptable to you? You think the NSA is fucked up? What lunachickie did is basically the same fucking thing, only fake-style (or do you claim it's real, in which case, again, oh fun, OUTING).

                    I say this is a classically bannable offense, period. I say that not one person on this site has an identity that is "safe" with this bullshit going on. But go for the gold and support it.

                    Your sig line is a joke considering the circumstances.

                    Click the ♥ to join us on the Black Kos front porch to review news & views written from a black pov - everyone is welcome.

                    by mahakali overdrive on Fri Aug 01, 2014 at 05:11:06 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  do you believe there is only one Mike in the world (3+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      shaharazade, kharma, lunachickie

                      or only one Mike with the last initial of S? And furthermore, even if duhban's name is Mike and his last name starts with an S that in no way outs him. You can't very well google "Mike S" and know for sure that what you find means anything.

                      So nobody's been outed. Nobody cares, really, as far as I know.

                      In any case, if anyone's to blame it's me. I wondered what "duhban" meant, googled that and there on the first page was "Mike S (duhban)" which amused me because the very last thing I'd read from duhban was "see my reply to Mike S". Anyone else who commented took my original post and ran with it.

                      If anyone gets banned it should be me and no one else. That'd be ok as this place accomplishes nothing and has lost its way.

                      Dear NSA: I am only joking.

                      by Shahryar on Fri Aug 01, 2014 at 05:20:22 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

            •  HR for an outing attempt OR a hoax (6+ / 0-)

              This is a huge deal, posting this.

              Either it's real, in which case it may link publicly to other real life information OR it's a hoax, in which case it's a sick prank.

              I think the image ought to be removed and the user who posted it should be placed on a long time out or else banned.

              It makes me uncomfortable to see this posted here and makes me think perhaps about not posting if people are going to try to out people OR impersonate them.

              Click the ♥ to join us on the Black Kos front porch to review news & views written from a black pov - everyone is welcome.

              by mahakali overdrive on Fri Aug 01, 2014 at 01:06:42 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  Dear doG (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              mahakali overdrive, duhban

              Get a life, people. This is getting absurd.

              Reported to admin. Time for this nonsense to stop once and for all. Some of us have actual concerns about the world we come here to read about in the few extra minutes we have every day.

              •  Thank you and AMEN (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                indubitably, duhban

                I came here for one reason today: I've been gone, out of country, with no news, for three weeks, and I wanted to get a Progressive interpretation of what was going on in Israel since I only knew about it from seeing it sort of through a window on TV in another language, more or less, with a tiny English subtitle. No other source of news was available. That was at least a week or two back. I got in last night, late, crashed out, am jet-lagged, and want to know what is happening with Israel and Palestine since the "regular" news is all skew, and at least here, I know peoples' general biases as well as who I tend to know is knowledgeable about the matter.

                I came online, thought to check an open ticket I had left in the Helpdesk, saw a link here, and I have YET to read about Israel and Palestine due to this utter nonsense.

                And tomorrow, I have class prep for the Fall semester starting, and coming in with a vengeance, the deadline squeezing more and more closely.

                So seriously. Amen.

                Click the ♥ to join us on the Black Kos front porch to review news & views written from a black pov - everyone is welcome.

                by mahakali overdrive on Fri Aug 01, 2014 at 06:02:10 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  I came here to read about (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  mahakali overdrive, duhban

                  The Earth Dragons in Siberia. I just turned in grades for summer and am falling down exhausted, but somehow falling asleep before 8-9 pm feels so ... pre-electricity. Or something.

                  I have to assume some people here have nothing to do other than fan the flames and harangue various "enemies" because they simply have nothing else. Nothing. No dinner to make or sinful treat to indulge in. No dogs or goats or cows or garden or collapsing ceiling or leaking faucets. No two year olds. No doddering old uncle needing attention. No friends whose texts are in desperate need of attention. No addictive television show or paperback. Nada. Nothing. Nothing but Daily Kos and their sworn enemies.

                  I suppose I should be sympathetic because their lives are that empty, but I'm not. They're too damned annoying.

                  •  You are not allowed to make me laugh (2+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    indubitably, duhban

                    that hard. I'm going to alarm the cat over here with your second paragraph.

                    Don't worry about the 8-9 pm issue; truth be told, I'm like the world's expert at it. Didn't Edna St. Vincent Millay write a whole poem about going to bed at half past eight? ;) In just a few weeks, I can look forward to the joys of getting up at 5 am all over again, primal screeeeaaaammmm!!!! Yes, I did get the world's worst schedule. Oh yes. I'll be lucky to live through it. I think my family was down to foraging sandwiches for every meal through the entire spring.

                    Click the ♥ to join us on the Black Kos front porch to review news & views written from a black pov - everyone is welcome.

                    by mahakali overdrive on Fri Aug 01, 2014 at 06:21:10 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  ::raises hand:: (2+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      mahakali overdrive, duhban

                      Up since 5 here. Same yesterday. And day before. And ...

                      Anyway, while putting disgusting undies and pajamas in the washing machine, I decided a few things. In my world, the only people allowed to expend such extraordinary amounts of time and energy on imaginary enemies, thereby disrupting everyone else's reading, are:

                      *80 ear olds confined to hospital beds, recliners or wheelchairs
                      *Prisoners locked up 23 hours a day in county jails
                      *People quarantined due to deadly diseases--Ebola, for example
                      *Victims of blizzards
                      *And the like

                      My god, it's annoying.

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