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View Diary: Another Objectivist Randian Libertarian Nut Job Finally Goes To Far (81 comments)

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  •  What, are you trying to change my mind Jeffw? (13+ / 0-)

    Never getting out seems better for society than Kibby spending a few years in prison and then being let loose with all the criminal knowledge he will have gained to that point...  Maybe we should hope he is institutionalized and reformed.

    I am the neo-con nightmare, I am a liberal with the facts.

    by bhfrik on Sun Aug 03, 2014 at 10:21:07 PM PDT

    [ Parent ]

    •  It sounds like he has a personality disorder... (23+ / 0-)

      ...and if I remember my college psyc classes correctly, those cannot be treated. Of course, if he is jailed, he could end up on the wrong end of a jailhouse shank, too, with his attitude.

      Float like a manhole cover, sting like a sash weight! Clean Coal Is A Clinker!

      by JeffW on Sun Aug 03, 2014 at 10:27:17 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Yeah, sexual predators are not tolerated.. (17+ / 0-)

        They are usually isolated. Which makes their disorder worse.

        He clearly shows symptoms associated with personality disorders. A professional diagnosis will probably be ordered. I doubt he'll qualify for a legal insanity defense.

        Many personality disorders are treatable. Even if he is diagnosed with some variety of schizotypal personality disorder, it's still treatable.

        The sexual predator behavior is almost always permanent and untreatable.

        He's a danger to society if he is the guy who kidnapped this young girl. The FBI has been doing a lot of interviews and has collected lots and lots of physical evidence, it seems. This is probably going to result in a solid conviction.

        This whole thing is just so very creepy...  

        "Never wrestle with a pig: you get dirty and the pig enjoys it"

        by GrumpyOldGeek on Mon Aug 04, 2014 at 12:55:36 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  i realize they don't have a lot of facts yet (7+ / 0-)

          but i'm really wondering HOW she...showed up again.

          did she escape?  did he let her go?  if so, why?

          following the woman to her house (after a minor traffic accident) to take pictures of her vehicle and confront her could be Borderline PD.  but releasing the girl, if he did, doesn't seem to fit that diagnosis.

          anyway, he seems to know right from wrong.  even if his "right" and "wrong" are messed up, isn't it that you have to not understand the difference in order to have an insanity defense?

          •  up to a point. (6+ / 0-)

            Someone may be sufficiently deranged that they view killing specific people as right and letting them live as wrong.  They may be completely convinced of that, and thereby classified as delusional.  

            Whether that's sufficient to meet the legal test for insanity and get them off the hook for murder, I have no idea, but perhaps there are lawyers here who can speak to that.

            However it's also true that insanity defenses are rarely successful, even with defendants who are diagnosed as having various types of psychiatric disorders, or shown to have fairly serious cognitive impairment (low IQ).  

            We got the future back. Uh-oh.

            by G2geek on Mon Aug 04, 2014 at 06:50:42 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

        •  narcissistic personality disorder. (17+ / 0-)

          Schizotypal includes the characteristic of anxiety in social situations.  This guy has no trouble telling a cop he's entitled to run red lights.  That says excessive self-confidence rather than anxiety.

          Narcissistic personality disorder seems to fit to a T, and it's pandemic in the culture:

          Symptoms of this disorder, as defined by the DSM-IV-TR, include:[1]

              Expects to be recognized as superior and special, without superior accomplishments
              Expects constant attention, admiration and positive reinforcement from others
              Envies others and believes others envy him/her
              Is preoccupied with thoughts and fantasies of great success, enormous attractiveness, power, intelligence
              Lacks the ability to empathize with the feelings or desires of others
              Is arrogant in attitudes and behavior
              Has expectations of special treatment that are unrealistic

          http://en.wikipedia.org/...

          We got the future back. Uh-oh.

          by G2geek on Mon Aug 04, 2014 at 03:10:54 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Sounds like the entire teapublikkkan party nt (16+ / 0-)

            I voted Tuesday, May 6, 2014 because it is my right, my responsibility and because my parents moved from Alabama to Ohio to vote. Unfortunately, the republicons want to turn Ohio into Alabama.

            by a2nite on Mon Aug 04, 2014 at 04:53:13 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  A point I've been making for a while (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              CAPitBull

              It was always present in the Republican Party, what with being the vanguard of the entitled rich, but the Tea Party transformed malignant narcissism from a trait of the party to its raison d'etre.

              This presents a serious problem for us as a nation because political ideology is ill-suited to serve as a mode of psychotherapy. No rational argument, no matter how well crafted, is going to persuade someone like, say, Michelle Bachmann because she's not misinformed or mistaken, she's full-on delusional, as are many of her supporters.

              Blaming Ayn Rand misses the point. Rand didn't invent narcissistic personality disorder, she just provided a focal point for it in a world that already had plenty of focal points. Without Atlas Shrugged, there's still Mein Kampf and The Turner Diaries, and there are enough highly articulate assholes in the world to crank out new narcissistic, violent "philosophies" if the current crop were all pulped and converted into fast food bags.

              We can also talk about better treatment of mental illness, but the simple fact is that a large proportion of the human race -- unsurprisingly about the same percentage that were pro-Bush dead-enders and who fill the ranks of the Tea Party, or the KKK, the CCC, and the John Birch Society before them -- suffers from varying degrees of antisocial personality disorders. They are always available when a Hitler or Mussolini comes along. So far, we've been tremendously lucky: we got Sarah Palin and the neocons instead of the more competent sociopaths who plagued western civilization in the mid-20th century.

              I wouldn't count on that luck holding out forever. We'd have been really screwed if Bush and Cheney hadn't botched the wars. Not all shitheads are fuckups, and having the kind of power the US has gives even marginal fuckups a dangerously large margin of error. The Tea Party will fade like the Klan did, but until we figure out how to structure our society and our politics so that the permanent fringe stays on the fringe, we'll be forever fighting rear-guard actions against the crazies instead of building a better life for ourselves and our children.

              I wish I had anything remotely approaching a solution to the problem to suggest. The only thing I'm sure about is that if we don't solve it, it will dissolve us.

              And the bright side of the downward thermodynamic spiral is, um...

              by eodell on Mon Aug 04, 2014 at 09:26:55 AM PDT

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          •  i thought the latest DSM (9+ / 0-)

            finally folded Narcissistic PD into the Borderline PD definition?

            i really thought i'd heard that a few years ago.  because...nah.

            anyway, narcissism is very, very much a part of being Borderline.  that and the need to control/dominate/reassert himself over the woman with the minor traffic accident.  that's completely Borderline to actually follow her home to be able to confront her.  Borderlines will never, ever let go of a perceived slight.  not sure how a Narcissist is with that.

            BUT....Borderlines are absolutely terrified of being "abandoned."  which is why i wonder about how the girl showed back up.  if he were Borderline, he'd never release her.  i suppose if he were Narcissist, he might have decided that she was simply not worth his time any more?

            •  i don't agree with combining them. (13+ / 0-)

              Narcissism is a very distinct syndrome.  This I know from having known a few and only figured them out years later.  I've also known a couple of sociopaths, and at least one borderline that I can be sure of.  All of them were substantially different, and all of them were highly destructive in different ways.  

              What put narcissism on my radar was the hypothesis of a close friend that it is pandemic in our culture.  At first I was skeptical, but over time it appeared that he was right about that.  

              Word to the wise: don't get involved with narcissists, sociopaths, or borderlines, in any capacity whatsoever.  Much trouble and misery will result, with near 100% certainty.  

              Compared to the pandemic of personality disorders, the current national obsession with autism and spectrum is frankly f---ing absurd.  The risks & dangers associated with autism spectrum disorders pales into insignificance compared to personality disorders.  

              Newt Gingrich is a classic narcissist, and arguably Sarah Palin is as well, and I would add Ralph Nader to that list (running for Pres w/ no prior history of elected office).  Jamie Dimon and Bernie Madoff are classic sociopaths.  The damage these people have done and can do is enormous.

              We got the future back. Uh-oh.

              by G2geek on Mon Aug 04, 2014 at 05:39:45 AM PDT

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              •  Hear, hear. Just f***ing heed this advice... (0+ / 0-)
                Word to the wise: don't get involved with narcissists, sociopaths, or borderlines, in any capacity whatsoever.  Much trouble and misery will result, with near 100% certainty.
                Don't waste time trying to decide whether you think this advice is wise, appropriate, necessary, or that you somehow know better and can deal with these types.

                You will only experience more trouble and misery. I think that's 100% for certain. The misery is a consequence of your involvement with these types. And you might have a personality disorder yourself which, almost by definition, you must deny. And you will continue to live a miserable life.

                The problem is that most people don't know a healthy personality from a unhealthy personality from a tree stump. And they believe their personality and behaviors are just peachy keen normal, thank you very much.

                The fact is that most people exhibit behaviors and hold beliefs that are symptomatic of various personality disorders to some degree. And 80% or drivers insist that they're better than average drivers. And they're just a social butterfly who enjoys a cocktail now and then and not an alcoholic. Everyone else knows otherwise.

                Sure, Sarah Who?™ is the poster child for NPD. Add Michele Bachmann to that list, but with more crazy. Diagnosis is an art.

                NPD is almost impossible to treat. Their belief system if fucked up. Like this: Narcissists don't have personality disorders. Only a crazy person would say that.

                It's easy to focus on autism and spectrum. The symptoms are often quite evident. The symptoms of personality disorders are usually hidden behind other layers of bullshit behaviors and distractions.

                A successful con artist is has mastered the art of distraction. The bullshit is believable as a result. Harold Hill, The Music Man, is a parody of a con artist.  But there are many who don't even notice the outrageous con portrayed in the musical.

                Dangerous con artists aren't so obvious. A conspiracy theorist posing as a whistleblower is a particularly evil and dangerous but effective technique used by a con artist. My choice for the top poster child of a successful con artist is Julian Assange, whose first email address was me@iq.org. If that doesn't give you  a clue, nothing will. Edward Snowden is another. Gelnn Greenwald. Dick Cheeeeney. W. To me, they're obvious con artists. Sure, a few things they bring up are true. But that's the distraction, not the con.

                "Never wrestle with a pig: you get dirty and the pig enjoys it"

                by GrumpyOldGeek on Mon Aug 04, 2014 at 11:00:37 AM PDT

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            •  Borderline is narcissism PLUS.... (14+ / 0-)

              Narcissism is a feature of both borderline and antisocial personality disorders, and sometimes other personality disorders as well. But borderline personality disorder has a much more chaotic and self-destructive nature, and in the vast majority of cases stems from a significant abuse history, often sexual. Borderline PD is now classified by many as Compex Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder, which seems appropriate given the frequent association of BPD with trauma, and the acuity of symptomatology associated with BPD.

              Narcissistic personality disorder can exist in people who function at a very high level socially. Borderline, not so much. IMO, pathological narcissism is a driving force for many with extreme right wing views--a bunch of people who perceive themselves as victimized, and lack empathy for "the other", and rely on each other to reinforce their world views. However, antisocial personality disorder is an extreme variant of narcissism that extends to lack of any moral hinging at all, predisposing them to criminal behavior and callous exploitation of others. This guy sounds like he smack dab on the cusp between the two of those diagnoses. I would likely diagnosis him with "Personality Disorder NOS (not otherwise specified) with Narcissistic and Antisocial traits."

              Battling psychiatric myths with sensible skepticism at www.makingsenseofpsychiatry.com

              by candid psychiatrist on Mon Aug 04, 2014 at 06:26:41 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  And by the way... (12+ / 0-)

                A personality disorder will NOT keep this guy out of prison.

                Battling psychiatric myths with sensible skepticism at www.makingsenseofpsychiatry.com

                by candid psychiatrist on Mon Aug 04, 2014 at 06:27:49 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

              •  most interesting: (5+ / 0-)

                What you said: Borderline PD = Complex PTSD.  Presumably from childhood traumas.  Interesting hypothesis; how strongly is that supported with case data?

                I've known high-functioning narcissists and wish I hadn't.

                What do you think of the hypothesis that our culture is suffering from the effects of pandemics of narcissistic and antisocial personality disorders?  

                And, what will it take to get the public awareness of those disorders up to where it is with autism spectrum disorders?

                We got the future back. Uh-oh.

                by G2geek on Mon Aug 04, 2014 at 06:54:50 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  There's evidence to support this view (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Philpm, GrumpyOldGeek

                  Research psychologist at U. San Diego has numerous studies documenting an increase in narcissism in the US over the last several decades, based on several measures.  As always, subject to debate.  Her name slips my aged mind right now, but I'll find it.  

                •  Too big a problem. ASD can be treated with early (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  GrumpyOldGeek, Calamity Jean

                  intervention, (with varying degrees of success), and the expansion of that population is straining the system already.

                  And those with ASD are mostly self involved, a lot of the personality disorders are aggressively up in others' business. They're very manipulative and intrusive and much more difficult to ride herd on.

                  We don't have nearly enough infrastructure to deal with that population on top of everything else. Even though they do so damned much damage.

                  Information is abundant, wisdom is scarce. ~The Druid.
                  ~Ideals aren't goals, they're navigation aids.~

                  by FarWestGirl on Mon Aug 04, 2014 at 10:00:25 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  The sad reality. (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    FarWestGirl
                    We don't have nearly enough infrastructure to deal with that population on top of everything else. Even though they do so damned much damage.
                    It's not profitable.

                    Faux Noise is profitable.

                    The infrastructure promotes defective thinking and provides rationalizations that exacerbate various personality disorders.  Treatment is not only discouraged, it is demonized. For a profit; money, power, fame, ego, whatever.

                    The witch-burning frenzy got out of control soon after Gutenberg made mass communication possible. The telephone and the telegraph drastically increased the speed and scope of mass communications. Then the radio. Then TV. Then Cable TV. Then the Internet.

                    The human brain evolved to deal with input within a smaller environment appropriate to the social animals that we are.

                    We are fucked up because evolution can't keep up any more.

                    12 cents....

                    "Never wrestle with a pig: you get dirty and the pig enjoys it"

                    by GrumpyOldGeek on Mon Aug 04, 2014 at 11:31:42 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

          •  Exactamundo... (6+ / 0-)

            But with a definite antisocial streak!

            Battling psychiatric myths with sensible skepticism at www.makingsenseofpsychiatry.com

            by candid psychiatrist on Mon Aug 04, 2014 at 06:10:29 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  IOW, the very definition of "danger to society" (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            papercut, Philpm, Turn Left

            How this disease became contagious is beyond me; but it's becoming awfully common.

            Last full month in which the average daily temperature did not exceed twentieth-century norms: 2/1985 - Harper's Index, 2/2013

            by kamarvt on Mon Aug 04, 2014 at 07:24:13 AM PDT

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        •  Sexual predator doesn't enter into it (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Philpm

          The guy is bright, but he's not smart enough to know when to keep his mouth shut. Which is important to survive a place like prison.

      •  Diagnosing people based on a news article (4+ / 0-)

        is foolish. Anyone with real psych training and experience will tell you this. That people here are so quick to blame every single right wing misdeed on mental illness is neither useful nor is it correct.

        No War but Class War

        by AoT on Mon Aug 04, 2014 at 07:42:49 AM PDT

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      •  They tend to be very difficult to treat due to the (0+ / 0-)

        lack of insight and inability of patients to recognize they have a problem.

        And yeah, from a distance at least, it does sound a lot like he does.

        Information is abundant, wisdom is scarce. ~The Druid.
        ~Ideals aren't goals, they're navigation aids.~

        by FarWestGirl on Mon Aug 04, 2014 at 09:47:44 AM PDT

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    •  my eyes are definitely not working (8+ / 0-)

      I read your last line as "Maybe we should hope he is euthanized and reformed."

    •  That's an argument for prison reform (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      UntimelyRippd

      Not for harsher sentences for people with whom you disagree politically and/or philosophically.

      No War but Class War

      by AoT on Mon Aug 04, 2014 at 07:09:31 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I think it was different point (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        JeffW

        I think that point is that the prison sentence ends.  However, if he's institutionalized, his various personality problems will cause him to never be allowed out of supervision of the state.

        Streichholzschächtelchen

        by otto on Mon Aug 04, 2014 at 07:31:44 AM PDT

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        •  No, the point was that prison would merely teach (0+ / 0-)

          him ways to commit crimes, which is an argument for prison reform, not for institutionalization. Classifying everyone who does something we disapprove of as mentally ill is neither correct, nor useful, and that's exactly what people are doing here. Amateur diagnoses based on a news article is foolish and almost 100% certain to be wrong. Any trained and experienced psychologist will tell you that.

          No War but Class War

          by AoT on Mon Aug 04, 2014 at 07:48:05 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

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