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View Diary: Israel Breaches Ceasefire Within Minutes And Kills 8 Year-Old Girl (105 comments)

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  •  it's nice that you are trying to circumvent (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Mannie

    the prohibition on comparing Israel to Nazis by quoting the Islamist Turkish president. If you really wanted to, I bet you could find a bunch of other similar quotes from other Islamists. Just like Hitler!

    •  Goodwin's law (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      dcg2, cryonaut, Mannie

      doesn't apply when talking about Israel.

      How have we not learned that yet.

      ISIS killing thousands of people in a matter of days for practicing the wrong type of Islam isn't genocide though. I'll wait for world leaders to start throwing around the Hitler word when it comes to ISIS. I might have to wait a while.

      •  When a major Likud Knesset member (11+ / 0-)

        calls for the formation of concentration camps for Palestinians, so as to clear the Gaza ghetto, then yes, the Godwin shark has been jumped - by the Likud themselves.

        "Well, yeah, the Constitution is worth it if you succeed." - Nancy Pelosi, 6/30/07 // "Succeed?" At what?

        by nailbender on Mon Aug 04, 2014 at 02:08:00 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  You may (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Mannie

          want to reread what concentration camps were and what he called for.

          Now I guess if you want to go literally, he said camps where gaza civilians could be concentrated to avoid civilian causalities, yea, then they are technically camps of concentration.

          But they're not concentration camps. I had family die in concentration camps, unless he added somewhere about using human ovens to heat the camps or gas chambers, then no, he didn't say what you're trying to make him say.

          Yea, what he said was stupid, but he did not call for concentration camps in the WWII Hitler sense.

          •  I am sad for the creulty dealt to your family (4+ / 0-)

            but there is a difference between concentration camps and death/extermination camps.

            http://www.holocaust-education.dk/...
            http://www.ushmm.org/...
            http://en.wikipedia.org/...

            I've got three tools in my arsenal: my voice, my wallet and my vote.

            by ExpatGirl on Mon Aug 04, 2014 at 02:25:56 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  What he said wasn't stupid, it was barbaric. (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            hubcap

            And it harkens back to humanity's darkest moments.

            Myself, I think Israel is acting more like 18th and 19th century America as we herded Native Americans -  those we'd displaced by a potpourri of "divine right", shady deals, outright theft and barbaric violence, along with the sellouts of feckless NA leaders - into Reservations after we'd beaten them to a pulp with our more advanced weaponry against not just their warriors but also against elders, women and children, with massacres and forced marches aplenty. And for a while the NA warriors fought back and were therefore about as reviled as Hamas is today, sometimes deservedly, sometimes not.  But we were never in the right in that long struggle, even when Indians resorted to barbarity themselves to counter our racist butchery.

            I'm sure you've read Ayelet Shaked's genocidal screed, btw. She was Bibi's assistant when he was a back bencher and was elected as Likud's coordinator just a couple years ago.  Her dehumanizing rant also fits the Godwin mold.

            No, Israel isn't exactly like the Nazis (just as they aren't behaving exactly like America's genocidal campaign against NAs or exactly like the apartheid regime of South Africa) - but the current ruling clique there sure hasn't assimilated the lessons of Shoah from a perpetrator's perspective. That's why that "stupid" remark can be not just made, but also posted as an official plea for action with the current PM from a Knesset Speaker, for crissake, because a cold, Holocaust shiver didn't run down his spine when the thought occurred to him, allowing him to dismiss it outright for the heinous idea it is.

            "Well, yeah, the Constitution is worth it if you succeed." - Nancy Pelosi, 6/30/07 // "Succeed?" At what?

            by nailbender on Mon Aug 04, 2014 at 02:52:21 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

      •  Let me know when the US starts giving ISIS... (6+ / 0-)

        ...$3 billion a year. Then you'll have a point. Until then...

        Lightly Seared On The Reality Grill

        by Retroactive Genius on Mon Aug 04, 2014 at 02:22:03 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  until then (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Mannie

          ISIS has still killed more than 3 times what Israel has, with its victims being 100% civilians and no efforts (none, zero) being made to reduce civilian deaths. Oh yea, and they're about to head into Baghdad to kill more people.

          But they're not Hitler, only Israel can be hitler.

          •  ISIS is barbaric and malignant. And they exist (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            kbman, rb608

            because American neocons, at the urging of the fucking Likud, invaded Iraq without provocation thereby setting up the conditions for an al Qaida offshoot to gain a foothold and take advantage of regional disgust at the corrupt government we (who, by the way, murdered maimed and displaced millions of Iraqis which was another recruiting bonanza for the jihadists) set up and funded via multiple corrupt mechanisms.

            The Likud and their partners aren't as medievally ruthless as either ISIS or, hell, Pol Pot or any number of human butchers. There. I've said it. Break out the confetti.

            "Well, yeah, the Constitution is worth it if you succeed." - Nancy Pelosi, 6/30/07 // "Succeed?" At what?

            by nailbender on Mon Aug 04, 2014 at 03:04:11 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  wait, you're somehow (0+ / 0-)

              blaming Israel for ISIS?

              This has got to be a troll, right?

              •  I'm blaming the neocons and their Likudnik (4+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                kbman, Ray Blake, rb608, banjolele

                cheerleaders.

                Likud is to Israel as the neocons are to America. Both countries are the worse for their respective ascendancies. And the invasion of Iraq (which the Likud was vehemently urging us to do, and which the PNAC crowd was totally embedded with) midwifed ISIS and other nutcase jihadist groups, even as the USSR's invasion of Afghan midwifed (again, with US assistance) al Qaida.

                Are you a necon?  You really don't see that?

                "Well, yeah, the Constitution is worth it if you succeed." - Nancy Pelosi, 6/30/07 // "Succeed?" At what?

                by nailbender on Mon Aug 04, 2014 at 03:29:43 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  no, i'm not neocon (0+ / 0-)

                  but when it comes to mass murders, i tend to blame the people with the guns.

                  •  You don't blame Israel for anything (3+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    happymisanthropy, Ray Blake, rb608

                    So I'm doubtful of that.

                    No War but Class War

                    by AoT on Mon Aug 04, 2014 at 03:53:33 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  except for all those times I have (0+ / 0-)
                      •  Really? I've seen you blame Hamas for (2+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        Emmy, Ray Blake

                        all the dead children again and again. When did you blame Israel?

                        Did you turn over a new leaf?

                        No War but Class War

                        by AoT on Mon Aug 04, 2014 at 04:16:34 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  the dozens of times (0+ / 0-)

                          that I've said that Hamas' terrorist actions do not excuse Israel for its actions. Israel fired the weapons, so they take some of that responsibility, and all of the responsibility when the intelligence is wrong.

                          But yes, Hamas, which uses human shields and fires rockets from hospital parking lots (according to FInnishTV and former human shield used by palestinians do share some responsibility.

                          The Helsingin Sanomat report was titled, ‘HS spent the night at a hospital in Gaza.’

                          Their reporter, whose name is not shown in the segment uploaded to YouTube on Friday, is reporting from outside of the hospital, where she said, “Right in the back parking lot of Al Shifa Hospital, a rocket was launched, two o’clock in the morning.”

                          “Really, it happened right in the area, the sound of it was really loud,” she said. “It’s true that rockets are launched here from the Gazan side into Israel.”

                          The Palestinians have perfected using women and children to gain the world’s sympathy and this goes back 30 years. I, as a child between 1975 and 1976 was used as a human shield in my bomb shelter. We were 9 children hiding in a bomb shelter.
                  •  Do you deny that the Likud was heavily invested (0+ / 0-)

                    politically in the Iraq War of Aggression and that they considered it an imperative that the US undertake it?  Maybe you should read some contemporaneous reporting about that.

                    (You will note Peres being one of the cheerleaders, but he was as much of Likudnik at the time as Lieberman was a neocon, and that his and Sharon's opposition was the actual Labor guy.)

                    History. It really happened.

                    "Well, yeah, the Constitution is worth it if you succeed." - Nancy Pelosi, 6/30/07 // "Succeed?" At what?

                    by nailbender on Mon Aug 04, 2014 at 04:02:05 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  I deny (0+ / 0-)

                      that Likud is personally killing thousands of people in Iraq and Syria for practicing the wrong for is Islam. I also deny that money for ISIS is flowing through Likud or Israel.

                      •  It's called blowback, dude. And those that created (1+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        kbman

                        the disasters that engendered the blowback are responsible for their part in it.  Whether they, or you, are cognizant of their culpability is irrelevant.

                        BTW, I don't think you're as obtuse as your responses imply. I think you just don't like answering questions, the answers to which undermine your positions.

                        "Well, yeah, the Constitution is worth it if you succeed." - Nancy Pelosi, 6/30/07 // "Succeed?" At what?

                        by nailbender on Mon Aug 04, 2014 at 05:19:32 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

            •  In case it escapes you, ISIS exists because we (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              happymisanthropy, hubcap, banjolele

              with Israel's urging and collusion, tilled the ground for them, so to speak. There was no al Qaida presence in that part of the Middle East (despite the pretextual lies to that effect that Bush and Cheney and Rice spewed) till the neocons and their Likudnik cheerleaders gave them the ideal conditions to establish their noxious brand of Islam there and in Syria.

              The Likud needs Hamas just as the neocons needed al Qaida and Saddam. Sometimes I think their religion isn't really Judaism but Zoroastrianism: they can't operate except in a cosmic good/evil paradigm. The beauty and subtlety and poetry of the Jewish tradition is less than a sideshow for them.

              "Well, yeah, the Constitution is worth it if you succeed." - Nancy Pelosi, 6/30/07 // "Succeed?" At what?

              by nailbender on Mon Aug 04, 2014 at 03:23:30 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

      •  ISIS (0+ / 0-)

        is subject to far stronger language, but they aren't killing people based on ethnicity, but religion.

        Frankly, I'd go out on a limb and say that ISIS is easily as bad as the Nazis, just without the industrial scale machinery to carry out their horrendous world view.  There are whole depths of depravity out there and ISIS seems to be of a mind to thoroughly explore them

    •  Tayyip Erdogan is not some just some random (13+ / 0-)

      Muslim blogger. He is the Prime Minister of Turkey - a country that was a very strong ally of the US in the ME. As such his public statements are very important.

    •  Let me see: the Prime Minister of one of the.. (6+ / 0-)

      ...largest and most powerful nations in the region, Israel's former strongest ally in the region, says this and what? Ignore it? Pretend he didn't say it? It's news, whether you like it or not. But nice try at deflection.

      Lightly Seared On The Reality Grill

      by Retroactive Genius on Mon Aug 04, 2014 at 02:20:03 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  strongest ally? (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        dcg2, Mannie, cryonaut

        Turkey is the main funder of Hamas.

        That's one crappy ally.

        •  This is what you apologists... (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Lepanto, happymisanthropy

          ...for the Likud war criminals are trying to justify. Just another 'human shield', right?

          Gaza City (Palestinian Territories) (AFP):

          Lying on his bed in a Gaza hospital, three-year-old Yamin now sees the world from behind burns which have disfigured him for life. The tiny boy is just one of hundreds of burn victims and those wounded by Israeli shell fire overwhelming Gaza's sole working operating theatre for plastic surgeons.

          He also has burns on his back and multiple fractures suffered when an Israeli strike decimated his family and destroyed their home in Al-Buraj, central Gaza, last week.

          It was the evening. The start of Eid al-Fitr, the festival marking the end of the Muslim holy month of Ramadan.
          In a single strike, the house was turned to rubble and 19 people lay dead. Yamin, miraculously, was the sole survivor but he was left an orphan and badly burnt.

          He was taken to a clinic then rapidly transferred to the burns department at the Shifa hospital in Gaza, where he cries, lying naked, and where a handful of surgeons are now confronted with the endless horrors of the war.

          Do you think that 3 year-old is 'telegenically' wounded enough for Netanyahu?

          Lightly Seared On The Reality Grill

          by Retroactive Genius on Mon Aug 04, 2014 at 02:49:58 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  so when you're proven wrong (0+ / 0-)

            that's the talking point you go to?

            Do you have that saved for just such an occasion?

            It's OK to admit that turkey funds Hamas. And that Hamas is a terrorist organization. And that Hamas is an anti-semetic organization.

            •  A burned 3 year-old is a 'talking point'? (0+ / 0-)

              You and 'telegenically dead' Netanyahu deserve each other.

              As for being 'proven wrong': don't spout drivel. Proven wrong about what? That Turkey is a member of NATO? That it was, until recently, Israel's strongest ally in the region?

              As for 'Turkey funds Hamas', repeating something endlessly doesn't make it true (although a man named Goebels advised using this technique to make things 'true').

              Provide evidence or stop. Your first link is not evidence, just gossip; the Daily Beast link proves nothing.

              Try harder.

              Lightly Seared On The Reality Grill

              by Retroactive Genius on Mon Aug 04, 2014 at 03:16:08 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

        •  no, actually, that's not true (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Pilsner

          Hamas receives a lot of funding from Palestinian expats, and Iran.  Turkey doesn't merit a mention  But I guess in your worldview every islamist is the same person or something

          •  more recent info (0+ / 0-)

            http://www.haaretz.com/...

            300 Million annually from Turkey to Hamas.

            I'll accept your apology and correction at any time.

            •  You didn't actually read the article (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Pilsner, AoT, happymisanthropy

              I can tell. It says that Turkey "may" provide funding in the future to make up for the shortfall from Iran, not that it has or will.  In any event, this appears to be for the purposes of funding the civil administration, which is hardly nefarious.  Israel ought to be picking up the full tab for its occupation, but it doesn't so others have to step up to provide governance and humanitarian aid.  for a description of the various funding sources, including the EU and Israel, Forbes has an interesting review.

              •  your article is from 1999 (0+ / 0-)

                Again, more recently the money has been coming from Turkey.

                From the WSJ

                Qatar and Turkey, however, have supplanted Iran as the biggest financial backers of Hamas in recent years, according to U.S. and Israeli officials. Qatar alone has pledged to fund the salaries of the Gaza Strip’s local, Hamas-dominated government.
                More background
                The latest missile attacks by Hamas were preceded by the kidnapping and execution of three Israeli teenagers in the West Bank by Hamas operatives. The Hamas leader urging kidnappings of Israelis in the West Bank is named Saleh al-Arouri, and he operates from Turkey.

                The kidnappings were preceded by a concerted effort by al-Arouri to fund and plan such operations. He may or may not have masterminded this specific attack, but it was the fruition of his orders. Hamas officially denies involvement, but Israel has identified the kidnappers as Hamas terrorists that were previously arrested and released.

                Israeli intelligence has reportedly concluded that Turkey has been the top financial sponsor of Hamas since 2012, with Erdogan arranging for the transfer of $250 million to the terrorist group annually. Another report puts the figure at $300 million. The funding comes from private sources he is close to and not from the official budget. Turkey is also said to have trained Hamas security forces in Gaza through non-governmental groups.

                The report said that Turkey coordinates the fundraising with Qatar, another supposed U.S. ally. Members of Congress have asked Qatar to stop financing Hamas. Khaled Meshaal, the political leader of Hamas, lives in Qatar and even gave an extremist sermon at its Grand Mosque. The U.S. blocked a $400 million aid package from Qatar to pay 44,000 employees of the Hamas government in Gaza.

                Also, IMO there is no "civil" part of Hamas. There is simply the terrorist organization, the cover operation. Think of it like the mob, they may have owned a dry cleaners, they may have even cleaned clothes once, but no one is giving the dry cleaners hundreds of millions of dollars to get out a ketchup stain.
                •  You really should provide links, please (0+ / 0-)

                  It makes your comments less useful when you don't.

                  Israeli intelligence has reportedly concluded
                  This is why people are skeptical of the claim. Do you have any other support except articles relying on Israeli intelligence? Because that's like claiming that Bush had intelligence that Iraq had WMD in terms of reliability. I feel foolish for having pushed that line without looking deeper at where the information came from.

                  No War but Class War

                  by AoT on Mon Aug 04, 2014 at 03:58:19 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                •  Good catch (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  AoT

                  The claim that Hamas was behind the kidnapping was denied by Israel, by the way.  Still this is better information een if Israeli intelligence is not a credible source.

                  And there is a civil arm that pays for bureaucrats and fuctionaries, propaganda notwithstanding. ( I guess similar attitudes explain why Israel seems to think that power plants and schools are legitimate targets). As I said, finding those operations is hardly objectionable, only the military wing.  Of course good luck teasing that out of courae

                •  And there is a civil part of Hamas (0+ / 0-)

                  no matter how much you deny it exists. It's one of the reasons they have the popularity they have.

                  No War but Class War

                  by AoT on Mon Aug 04, 2014 at 04:38:58 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

        •  The US has a defense treaty with Turkey (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          happymisanthropy

          Which is something Israel can't claim. And since Hamas doesn't attack the US funding Hamas doesn't even come into it.

          No War but Class War

          by AoT on Mon Aug 04, 2014 at 03:46:01 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  Maybe Israel should have thought of that (0+ / 0-)

          before attacking Turkish ships in international waters.  I mean, the US eats that shit up with a spoon, but some countries do not.

    •  So you don't want to know that he's saying (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      happymisanthropy

      that shit? We shouldn't even point out when people compare Israel to Nazis? You should probably tell that to people who have been writing diaries about antisemitism then. They've been rightfully pointing out who's been saying shit like that for a while now.

      No War but Class War

      by AoT on Mon Aug 04, 2014 at 03:40:12 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  It's not like many are thinking of the irony (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      happymisanthropy

      of former victims of genocide perpetuating genocide of their own design.

      Hillary does not have the benefit of a glib tongue.

      by The Dead Man on Mon Aug 04, 2014 at 03:47:44 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Blah blah distract distract. (0+ / 0-)

      Anything to obfuscate the crimes being committed.

      Disgusting.

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