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View Diary: Cease Fire Violated by Gaza Terrorists (279 comments)

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  •  Agree about WND, but there are other sources (18+ / 0-)

    I just went looking on Google News and see that there are others reporting that Hamas has broken the cease fire by shooting missiles into Israel:

    Voice of America

    CNN

    Other outlets are reporting the same story which originated from the IDF.  

    It's the Supreme Court, stupid!

    by Radiowalla on Thu Aug 07, 2014 at 08:54:25 PM PDT

    [ Parent ]

    •  I have no doubt there was rocket fire (15+ / 0-)

      But even CNN is saying it isn't sure who fired the rockets. And that Hamas is denying responsibility. That's a far, far cry from the gist of this diary.

      GOP 2014 strategy -- Hire clowns, elephants, and a ringmaster and say "a media circus" has emerged and blame Democrats for lack of progress. Have pundits agree that "both sides are to blame" and hope the public will stay home on election day.

      by ontheleftcoast on Thu Aug 07, 2014 at 08:58:22 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I imagine that there are a few angry, bitter, (12+ / 0-)

        hopeless young men in Gaza right now.
        Hamas has denied that it fired the rockets, but you know, it helps the narrative to paint Hamas as an all-seeing, all-knowing, all-powerful entity...with their puny, homemade rockets. Or worse yet, use Hamas to paint all Palestinians as evil, savages. After all, you dehumanize them it makes it easier to bomb them, starve them, pen them up like farm animals in a cage, destroy their infrastructure and leave them to rot in the sewer-like conditions that is Gaza today.

        Maya Angelou: “There's a world of difference between truth and facts. Facts can obscure truth.”

        by JoanMar on Thu Aug 07, 2014 at 10:48:29 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  How convenient for Hamas (11+ / 0-)

          All they have to say is, "it wasn't us but instead a lone wolf" and think that normal people will believe them. The only people wha believe Hamas are other terrorists or terrorist sympathizers

        •  And it helps your narrative (11+ / 0-)

          to paint Hamas as something other than the Jew-hating hideous terrorists that they are.

          Disgusting.

          •  It is mostly disappointing to me (10+ / 0-)

            to see this.  Such blind spots are hard to reckon when you know the posters to be compassionate and fair on other issues.
            This rushing to defend Hamas is unseemly at best.  

            It's the Supreme Court, stupid!

            by Radiowalla on Fri Aug 08, 2014 at 07:49:13 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  They can be sympathetic to the Palestinians (10+ / 0-)

              caught in the crossfire, without having any sympathy or making any excuses for Hamas and PIJ. Nevertheless, the frequency with which they jump to the defense of Hamas, trying to explain away any and all Hamas actions, makes me wonder.

            •  Radiowalla, I am a bit saddened that you are (4+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              poco, capelza, CenPhx, WattleBreakfast

              disappointed by my views on the I/P issue.
              I won't think less of you because you are prepared to think less of me.
              I will not apologize to anyone for my defense of the Palestinians. Nor will I apologize for not lumping Hamas with Boko Haram and Al Qaeda. I will never accept that the ANC, Maroons,  or Jews fighting against the Romans in the first century were terrorists.
              I recently went back and looked up some of the literature about the founding of Israel, and it was remarkable the tactics that were used then to secure the homeland.

              Tell me, Radiowalla, what if the situation was reversed? What if it were the Palestinians who had all the power and the defense systems. What if it were Israelis who were told to live in a certain area and had no freedom to move as they wanted? What if the Palestinians controlled the Israeli airspace and territorial waters, and had drones flying over their heads daily to monitor activities and collect intelligence? What if it were Israeli children who felt hopeless, and Israeli parents who felt helpless with no ability to protect their families?
              Do you for one nanosecond think that you'd not have an underground resistance movement? Do you really, really think that young - and old - Israelis would just sit back and accept that reality?
              Then why do ask it of the Palestinian?

              And no, I am not a supporter of Hamas. I am a supporter of the Palestinians. I understand their pain. I see the wretched conditions under which they are forced by a superior power to live. And if the situation were reversed, I'd be a supporter of Israel. I am disappointed that you do not see the suffering, Radiowalla, and that you'd focus on symptoms rather than on root causes.

              Maya Angelou: “There's a world of difference between truth and facts. Facts can obscure truth.”

              by JoanMar on Fri Aug 08, 2014 at 10:00:10 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  I would like to take you out for a drink to (6+ / 0-)

                talk this over.  I think we would find much to agree upon.

                The founding of the state of Israel left much to be desired.  But Israel does exist and it is the sole homeland for Jews on the entire planet.  If you look at the map of the world you will find boundaries that have been drawn and redrawn in arbitrary ways by colonists and victors of various wars.  This is a process that is continuing before our very eyes (witness what his going on in Ukraine, for example).  The Palestinians were offered a homeland which they refused and Israeli partisans did chase many of them out of their lands.  By the same token, nearly 900,000 Jews were expelled from Arab countries.  They lost their homes, their property and their livelihoods and they have not been allowed to return.  There is plenty of heartache to go around if you are willing to look at it.

                I do feel much heartache for the Palestinian people.  They have been shafted time and again by the ill-will of the present Israeli gov't but primarily by their own extremist leadership who has led them down the path to a persistent state of war.  

                My compassion is for all of them.  The difference between us seems to be that I feel that Israel has a right to exist and to exist in peace, without being attacked by missiles shot over the border on a nightly basis by its neighbors.  Although Israel has not always lived up to its principles, it is by far the most solid example of democracy and women's rights and gay rights in the Middle East.  For me, that counts for something.  

                I do not equate the Palestinian people with Hamas.  It is possible to loathe Hamas and have compassion for the plight of the Palestinians.   I urge you to read the charter of Hamas and decide if you think they are interested in peace.    

                It's the Supreme Court, stupid!

                by Radiowalla on Fri Aug 08, 2014 at 04:58:16 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

              •  You didn't ask me, but I'll answer. (3+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                JNEREBEL, Jersey Jon, leftynyc
                what if the situation was reversed? What if it were the Palestinians who had all the power and the defense systems.
                Hamas is not "all the Palestinians," as I believe you've already agreed?

                Read the Hamas charter.  They clearly tell you what they'd do.  Israel isn't fighting the Palestinians.  Israel is fighting Hamas.

                What if it were Israelis who were told to live in a certain area and had no freedom to move as they wanted?
                Actually, Jewish people were told just that for two thousand years, .

                Gaza has another neighbor named Egypt, btw.  You may have heard of it?

                Jordan borders the other Palestinian-controlled territory.

                I would hope you realize that Israel doesn't control Jordan and Egypt, right?

                If we've learned anything over the years, it's that if somebody (in this case, Hamas) tells us that they want to kill us, we'd better listen.

                What if the Palestinians controlled the Israeli airspace and territorial waters, and had drones flying over their heads daily to monitor activities and collect intelligence?
                1) it would be unnecessary, because there are no Jewish terror groups aiming to wipe out Palestinians.

                And 2), Hamas would continue to try to kill Jews, nonetheless.

                What if it were Israeli children who felt hopeless, and Israeli parents who felt helpless with no ability to protect their families?
                Spend a week in Sderot and Ashkelon, and the other cities in Southern Israel, who have been under constant siege from Gazan rocket and mortar fire for over a decade, and who have now raised an entire generation of children with PTSD.

                Then tell us who sees what, and who suffers where.

                •  But it is Palestinians who are dying. (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Portlaw, poco
                  Israel isn't fighting the Palestinians.  Israel is fighting Hamas.
                  If I agree with you on this:
                  Spend a week in Sderot and Ashkelon, and the other cities in Southern Israel, who have been under constant siege from Gazan rocket and mortar fire for over a decade, and who have now raised an entire generation of children with PTSD.
                  Will you agree with me, that at the very least, Palestinian are also suffering? How do you think the young population of Gaza is dealing with the death and destruction they have seen over the past weeks?
                  This from a 2003 study of Palestinian children:
                  Our study also found that 33% of the children were having acute levels of Posttraumatic stress disorder, 49% from moderate levels and 16% low levels. In “hot” (close to Israeli settlements) areas, 55% of the children suffered from acute levels of posttraumatic stress disorder, 35% from moderate levels, and 9% low levels
                  http://www.healingdivides.org/...

                  Maya Angelou: “There's a world of difference between truth and facts. Facts can obscure truth.”

                  by JoanMar on Fri Aug 08, 2014 at 07:44:50 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Yes, they're suffering. (2+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    leftynyc, RedsFanForever

                    This will stop if their 'leaders' can just stop shooting missiles at Israeli civilians for more than a few days.

                    The people of Gaza need to be freed from Hamas.

                    92% of Palestinians want a long-term ceasefire.

                    There are reports that Hamas leaders are being beaten by regular Gazans for using them as human shields.

                    It is the Gazans who are dying because their leaders continue to insist on fighting to the last one, while they hide in safety in luxury Qatari hotels.

                    Believe it or not, JoanMar, Israelis don't want to keep fighting this same battle over and over again, either.

                    But Israel can't stop until Hamas does.

                  •  Also, why did you ignore this? (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    leftynyc
                    Gaza has another neighbor named Egypt, btw.  You may have heard of it?

                    Jordan borders the other Palestinian-controlled territory.

                    I would hope you realize that Israel doesn't control Jordan and Egypt, right?

                    Do you dispute either of these facts?
                    •  I ignored that because I didn't view it as (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      poco

                      a serious question. I am about having an honest debate; not play cute, dishonest, gotcha games.

                      I'll take the sliver of hope you offered in the first response and run with it. You agreed that Palestinians are suffering. That is good.
                      One question (if you answer I'll probably respond tomorrow, or after I get a quick nap), can you agree that the blockade may have contributed to the radicalization of some Palestinian youths? Can you agree that the blockade may have contributed to the suffering of Palestinians?
                      Would you want your family living in Gaza under the strictures imposed by Israel?
                      Honest answers now.

                      Maya Angelou: “There's a world of difference between truth and facts. Facts can obscure truth.”

                      by JoanMar on Fri Aug 08, 2014 at 08:36:21 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  Why would you not view it as a serious question? (1+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        leftynyc

                        Do you really view geography as a "cute, dishonest, gotcha game"?

                        Are you disputing that Jordan and Egypt border the Palestinian territories?

                        Do you need a map?

                        Or are you claiming that Israel controls those countries?

                        In which case, I probably can't help you with much.

                        You refuse to answer my two very simple questions, and then ask me three, while claiming to only ask one, and then further insinuate that I am inclined to lie.

                        Nevertheless, I will indulge you.

                        What exactly do you claim Israel is 'blocking' from coming into Gaza?

                        Can you provide evidence that Israel is denying necessities from entering Gaza, even in a time of war?  And further, can you tell us why, if so, Egypt does not allow same to pass through their border with Gaza?

                        The blockade is to prevent shipments of missiles and concrete used to build terror tunnels.  None of that benefits the growth of Palestinian youths in any way.

                        If such a thing radicalizes them, then there's a problem with what they're taught by UNRWA and Hamas and other enablers of terror.

                        Would you want your family living in Sderot under hundreds of missiles a year and with terror tunnels possibly dug under your kitchen or your kid's kindergarten?

                        Honest answers now, JoanMar.

                        •  I did not accuse you of lying. (1+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          poco

                          You are correct; I did promise to ask one question and asked three instead. Forgive me.

                          Would you want your family living in Sderot under hundreds of missiles a year and with terror tunnels possibly dug under your kitchen or your kid's kindergarten?
                          No. I would be scared. I would fear for the lives of my loved ones and my own. I would be a mess.

                          You didn't answer my question. Would you want your family to live in Gaza. Or the West Bank, for that matter.

                          Maya Angelou: “There's a world of difference between truth and facts. Facts can obscure truth.”

                          by JoanMar on Fri Aug 08, 2014 at 09:13:53 PM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  Yes, you did. (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            leftynyc

                            Or else you wouldn't have said this -

                            Honest answers now.
                            When have I ever not been honest here?  If nothing else, I would venture to guess that a number of people here now dislike me because I am too honest in saying what I believe.

                            That aside, I see you're once again refusing to answer questions.

                            You ask -

                            Would you want your family to live in Gaza.
                            No, we'd have all long since been dragged to death behind motorcycles by Hamas.

                            How is that the fault of Israel, or me?

                            Or the West Bank, for that matter.
                            I am not an Israeli.  I am a Philadelphian.

                            But I'll take a stab at this one, too.

                            I wouldn't live there out of any particular fear for my safety,  yet nor do I subscribe to the notion that Jews should not be allowed to live in Judea and Samaria, as Mahmoud Abbas and others argue.

                            I leave the notion that a future Palestinian state must be completely free of Jews for others to defend.

                            Why would you ask me this question?

                            Now that I've answered all of your questions, and you've answered none of mine, would it be too hopeful on my part to consider that you might do us the favor of answering a couple of mine?

                            1) How would you realistically propose that the rockets on Israel be stopped?

                            2) How can firing rockets at Israeli civilians, while hiding behind your own civilians, ever be considered "self-defense?"

                          •  Btw, I answer all of your questions. (0+ / 0-)

                            You answer none of mine.

                            In fact, you don't even bother responding to my answers to your 'questions,' which easily swat all of them away.

                            Yet of course, you have another round of nonsense waiting for me every time nonetheless.

                            Here's another couple two or three questions for you -

                            1) Will you ever consider that maybe you've taken the wrong side of this conflict?

                            2) What, exactly, parts of Hamas' platform qualifies as progressive positions?  Do you even know what Hamas stands for?

                          •  I asked you a question and you deflected. (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            poco

                            You asked me a version of the same question and I gave a sincere (I thought) answer.
                            You:

                            Would you want your family living in Sderot under hundreds of missiles a year and with terror tunnels possibly dug under your kitchen or your kid's kindergarten?
                            Me:
                            No. I would be scared. I would fear for the lives of my loved ones and my own. I would be a mess.
                            I want to focus your attention on specific issues and you keep dragging red herrings to litter the trail and make it more complex than it needs be.
                            And that's the problem, isn't it? If we can't even agree on parameters of our debate/conversation, how on earth can those in the middle of this unfolding tragedy see their way clear to make any concessions?
                            Ok, so let's try again. I want you admit that the Palestinians are suffering and angry and that there is a basis for their anger. I want you to admit that there is a lot  the Israeli government can be doing, and should be doing to alleviate the suffering.
                            You can start by admitting that under present conditions, you would not want your family living in Gaza. Not because you are a Jew and Hamas will come and get you; but because you are a human who loves his family and want to see them living in a safe environment and with hope for the future.
                            Admit that and maybe we can start to see a way forward that will bring hope to the Palestinians and peace for the Israelis.

                            To answer another of your questions: No.

                            Will you ever consider that maybe you've taken the wrong side of this conflict?
                            No. As long as the status quo remains as is, I am for the weak and the powerless. That doesn't mean that I do not fear for that mother in Sderot who worries about the safety of her children. She too is a victim.

                            Maya Angelou: “There's a world of difference between truth and facts. Facts can obscure truth.”

                            by JoanMar on Sat Aug 09, 2014 at 10:25:19 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Okay. (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Proteus7
                            You can start by admitting that under present conditions, you would not want your family living in Gaza.
                            You're right, I wouldn't.  The people of Gaza are stuck with a terror organization which is willing to fight to the last Gazan, while their leaders order room service in luxury hotels in Qatar.

                            Life is hell for the average Gazan right now.  I see that as the fault of Hamas.

                            This is clearly where we differ.  You seem to blame Israel for responding to attacks that no country on earth would be expected to put up with.  All Hamas and its cohorts need do is stop firing rockets at Israel.

                            As long as the status quo remains as is, I am for the weak and the powerless.
                            Israel isn't fighting "the weak and the powerless."  Israel is fighting the organization which has launched thousands of missiles at its cities, and which killed hundreds of Israelis in a wave of regular suicide bombing attacks in the early part of the last decade.

                            Hamas may not be very good at it anymore, but they still continue to try to kill Jews.  Which is unacceptable.  All they have to do is stop trying to kill people, and they'll be left alone.  What of this is so hard to understand?

                          •  And we are right back where we started. (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            poco, CenPhx
                            Israel isn't fighting "the weak and the powerless."
                            But it is the weak and powerless who are dying and it is Israeli bombs that are killing them.

                            Maya Angelou: “There's a world of difference between truth and facts. Facts can obscure truth.”

                            by JoanMar on Sat Aug 09, 2014 at 12:50:11 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Because Hamas is 'bravely'... (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            rduran, Proteus7

                            ...willing to fight to the last Gazan, who they hide behind and under.

                            It is unacceptable for Israeli cities to live under perpetual siege, and no other country in the world would be expected to put up with this.

                            We're "right back where we started," because Hamas continues to do the same thing over and over again.

                          •  It is not only Hamas that seems ready to fight (3+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Portlaw, poco, CenPhx

                            to the last Gazan.
                            Israel is equally determined, one could argue.

                            Maya Angelou: “There's a world of difference between truth and facts. Facts can obscure truth.”

                            by JoanMar on Sat Aug 09, 2014 at 02:48:04 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Nonsense. (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            JayinPortland, Proteus7

                            For one, Israelis are as fundamentally decent folk as you'll find anywhere in the world.

                            Two, this is a nation born out of genocide.  There is absolutely no way any Israeli government would countenance the wanton destruction of another people for any reason short of the gravest ones.

                            Three, Israel has been considerably more careful in sparing civilians on the battlefield than Americans have.

                            Four, Israel doesn't need to fight to the very last Gazan to defeat Hamas.  She only needs to defang Hamas long enough for the Gazans to finish the job themselves.

                          •  Sure, one can argue that. (0+ / 0-)

                            They'd be wrong, but one can 'argue' anything, I suppose.

                          •  I'd point out that the situation isn't so static (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            JayinPortland

                            Hamas and friends fired off an order of magnitude more missiles this time than they did during Cast Lead.  It's believed the terrorists started with 11,000 missiles of all type, and up to a hundred of the longer range models they hoped to use to strike major Israeli population centers.  Israel says she's destroyed or Hamas has expended upwards half of that stock in a single month, and we still can't gauge the impact attacks on launchers, missilemen, producers and smugglers have had on the terrorists' capacity to reconstitute.

                            There's a chance to win this for real, or at the very least knock the Gazan militants out of the game for a good long while.

              •  If the situation were reversed (4+ / 0-)

                All the Jews would be dead. Read Hamas' Charter.

                Done with politics for the night? Have a nice glass of wine with Palate Press: The online wine magazine.

                by dhonig on Fri Aug 08, 2014 at 07:42:10 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

          •  They don't just sit around hating Jews (0+ / 0-)

            So yes, they are something other than just that. I realize you need a comically evil group to excuse Israel's actions, or perhaps only Israel needs that, but Hamas is not a comically evil group, it's a mixed bag. It does do some good, despite its antisemitism.

            Given that most interaction that people in Gaza have with Jews is in the form of the IDF or missiles and bombs I can hadly be surprised there's a lot of antisemitism. If France was bombing my city and killing my children I'd probably hate French people.

            No War but Class War

            by AoT on Fri Aug 08, 2014 at 08:27:16 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

        •  Their puny homemade rockets (7+ / 0-)

          killed five Palestinian militants today in a mishandling accident. Those puny homemade rockets destroyed the shit out of a Palestinian family's house in the West Bank, a few days ago.

        •  Best Comment! (1+ / 1-)
          Recommended by:
          JoanMar
          Hidden by:
          RedsFanForever
        •  RedFansForever just HR'ed me! Please help! (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          JoanMar
      •  Even the JPost article diarist links to (4+ / 0-)

        does not say Hamas fired the rockets.

        JPost is careful to only report what they know, but our dkos Diarist apparently has no such inhibitions.

      •  Islamic Jihad admitted (4+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        ontheleftcoast, AoT, poco, CenPhx

        firing the rockets (per NPR this am). Don't blame everything on Hamas like everything was blamed on Al Q'aida. Hamas has very little control over them.

        El pueblo unido jamás será vencido. The people united will never be defeated

        by mint julep on Fri Aug 08, 2014 at 05:53:55 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Nevertheless, Hamas (5+ / 0-)

          refused to extend the cease-fire. And Hamas is the governing authority (such as it is) in Gaza. So ultimately, it is responsible.

          •  So did Israel (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            poco, WattleBreakfast, mint julep

            Israel continues it acts of war and claims they don't represent war. If they were interested in a ceasefire they'd end the blockade.

            No War but Class War

            by AoT on Fri Aug 08, 2014 at 08:28:48 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  No, you are wrong (7+ / 0-)

              Israel did not refuse to extend the cease-fire. Israel was fine with extending it. And once the cease-fire ended at 8 am, and the barrage of war crimes rockets began firing from Gaza, Israel held off striking back for more than 2 hours.

              If you (or Hamas) thinks that after seeing thousands of rockets and more than 30 cement-hardened tunnels, Israel is going to just "end the blockade," without getting some kind of international oversight of imports and demilitarization of Hamas, you are deluding yourself. Israel is, in fact, open to easing if not ending the blockade, but it has to be done in a way that prevents import of weapons and diversion of construction materials to tunnel-building. There is absolutely no reason to reward Hamas for starting this conflict, prolonging it for weeks, and getting its ass kicked. That's not how the world works.

              •  If you or anyone else think that Hamas not firing (5+ / 0-)

                rockets is going to end the blockade then you're an idiot. Hamas kept to the previous ceasefire for nearly two years until Israel broke it and started the mass slaughter of Palestinians.

                Neither Hamas nor Israel broke the ceasefire.

                It's unfortunate that the ceasefire was not extended but the talks broke down because Israel continues to commit acts of war against the Palestinians. That is a simple fact of reality. A truce that included acts of war is no truce at all.

                What that truce means is that all Palestinians should stop all acts of aggression while Israel continues to commit acts of war against Palestinians. That's not a truce. What you're talking about is Israel having free reign to commit acts of war. That's not peace, it's war where only one side is fighting.

                What you, and Israel, are calling for is surrender, not a truce.

                No War but Class War

                by AoT on Fri Aug 08, 2014 at 08:53:30 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Merely stopping rocket fire (6+ / 0-)

                  will not end the blockade. It will not, because the past three weeks have shown exactly what Hamas and PIJ want to bring in freely -- weapons, rockets, and cement to build attack tunnels. Not cement to build homes and factories and resort hotels along the Mediterranean, that could make Gaza a tourist destination for Europeans. They want that cement to build attack tunnels.

                  So the only way the blockade will end is if there is another mechanism to prevent weapons from coming in to Gaza, and another mechanism to ensure that construction materials are used for rebuilding homes and factories, and for economic development. The negotiators were talking about that, and there were promising proposals involving England, France and Germany, as well as the PA. But hamas, enabled by people like you, thinks that they should get everything they want up front, without conditions, even though they have demonstrated to the entire world that they have consistently acted in bad faith.

                  The entire world saw those tunnels, saw how they were constructed, and saw thousands of rockets fired at Israel. The jig is up, and no reputable government is going to support Hamas in its unreasonable demands. They don't even have the support of Arab nations like Egypt and Saudi Arabia, anymore. All they have to rely upon are enablers like yourself.

                  •  It sounds a lot like you're saying that (2+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    capelza, mint julep

                    surrender is the only solution. Because having one side disarm is a surrender, not a negotiated truce.

                    Telling Hamas "Hey, don't worry, you're not really surrendering to Israel, you're surrendering to the UN." isn't really something that's going to go over well.

                    They don't even have the support of Arab nations like Egypt and Saudi Arabia, anymore.Pointing to the actions of American client states isn't exactly a strong argument. Egypt is a brutal dictatorship where the military overthrew the elected government and is once more in a state of emergency. Saudi Arabia is one of the most regressive regimes in the world in terms of human rights. Worse even than Hamas, at least in practical terms. And both are close allies of the US. Saying that US allies in the region don't support Hamas is meaningless.

                    And yes, the world saw those tunnels. The world also saw the fact that two civilians were killed on the Israeli side, where as more Palestinian civilians were killed in the last couple of months that Israeli civilians have been killed in the last two decades, more really.

                    Where's  the call for Israel, the group doing the actual killing, to disarm?

                    No War but Class War

                    by AoT on Fri Aug 08, 2014 at 09:30:14 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

            •  There was a perfectly fine ceasefire in place (6+ / 0-)

              And there were promising efforts to have the West step in to both end the blockade. Hard to see Jerusalem singing on in the immediate term, now that rocket fire has resumed in Gaza. It takes a special level of gall to complain about party X when party Y initiates hostilities.

              Unapologetic Obama supporter.

              by Red Sox on Fri Aug 08, 2014 at 08:44:38 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  A ceasefire that expired. (3+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                poco, capelza, mint julep

                And as much as I'd like to seethe ceasefire extended it was clear by the point the rockets had been launched that there was no extension. The Israeli negotiators had already returned.

                And unilateral disarmament of Gaza is not anything promising at all and anyone remotely familiar with the situation would know that. Presenting that as any sort of workable solution is laughable.

                No War but Class War

                by AoT on Fri Aug 08, 2014 at 08:58:58 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Oh, it was over (6+ / 0-)

                  Well, then. Everything is understandable. When the buzzer goes off, the game is over and there's nothing to be done about it.

                  I have a hard time seeing Israel's more vociferous critics here as accommodating had the ceasefire effectively ended with IDF armaments, rather than those of PIJ/Hamas.

                  Unapologetic Obama supporter.

                  by Red Sox on Fri Aug 08, 2014 at 09:05:04 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  It was fine when Israel did it the first few (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    WattleBreakfast

                    ceasefires, at least I didn't see any complaint from you or other constant defenders of Israel. Why is it suddenly the worst thing in the world now?

                    I have a hard time seeing Israel's more vociferous critics here as accommodating had the ceasefire effectively ended with IDF armaments, rather than those of PIJ/Hamas.
                    I consider that unlikely. Israel was done with it's operation and thus it agreed to a ceasefire because it didn't want to look worse in the eyes of the world. So Israel has every reason to maintain the ceasefire. Unlike the previous ceasefires.

                    No War but Class War

                    by AoT on Fri Aug 08, 2014 at 09:08:19 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

        •  Hamas is the government in Gaza (4+ / 0-)

          So it depends on how they respond to the firing of the rockets. If they take responsibility for attacks originating on their soil and arrest and prosecute the perpetrators and apologize to Israel for the actions of those citizens, then it shouldn't be considered a violation of the ceasefire. If they officially praise the perpetrators (as they did with with the kidnappers) then it should be considered a violation of the ceasefire. And if they simply claim no responsibility then they're demonstrating an inability to govern their citizens and lose any clout at the negotiating table.

          If the rockets really were fired by a militant group independent of Hamas, this is a great opportunity for them to prove that they want peace with Israel and will take action internally to achieve that peace by finding and prosecuting the people responsible. I'd love to see that happen.

          A List of the Most Common Logical Fallacies: http://www.nobeliefs.com/fallacies.htm

          by mnemosyne42 on Fri Aug 08, 2014 at 02:08:54 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  In never cite WND (7+ / 0-)

      except as an example of a 9/11 Truther site. But as you point out, there are plenty of other sources here.

    •  The claims that there was rocket fire trace back (0+ / 0-)

      to the Israelis, who have not exactly been paragons of honesty. So, maybe rockets were fired. Or maybe the Israelis are looking for an excuse for more slaughter in Gaza. We just don't know.
         The other thing we don't know: If rockets were fired, were they fired by Hamas or some other player?

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