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View Diary: Get Your Program! Our terrorist enemies and terrorist allies in Iraq (75 comments)

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  •  "Terrorist" has lost its meaning (36+ / 0-)

    ... in that part of the world, from overuse.  Every group fighting an established government is automatically "terrorist," because of the tactics such groups inevitably are forced to use.  So when you have a real terrorist group like ISIL, the overuse of terminology obscures the reality.

    If memory serves, the PKK got its original support from the old Soviet Union before its demise, because it was fighting our allies the Turks.  I believe it has renounced its Marxist-Leninist views after its leader was jailed.  Turkey views the Kurds approximately like the Union viewed the Confederacy during our Civil War, since they want to take almost half the country away.  Our support for Kurdish forces in Iraq has not endeared us to the Turks.

    This part of the world is like quicksand:  the more we struggle there, the more mired we get.  I'm coming to believe the only solution is to get out and let them fight amongst themselves.  We need to focus on minimizing the blowback from the stupid things we've already done.

    I stand with triv33. Shame on her attackers.

    by Dallasdoc on Sat Aug 09, 2014 at 02:29:35 PM PDT

    •  I can't agree more. (11+ / 0-)

      Seriously dallasdoc.

      And we definitely shouldn't be express shipping arms to anyone in the region, because, invariably, they end up in the hands of terrorists and despots.

      But, as you know, there is much too much money to be made in arms peddling in the middle east to quit now! Lives be damned -- daddy needs a new yacht.

      Blech.

    •  Beheading, stoning, suicide bombing and other (17+ / 0-)

      ...atrocities are the underfunded army's "shock and awe".  The US style is satuaration bombing.  The object is the same--terrorize people into surrendering without a fight.  The result are just as brutal, and the technological shock and awe produces many more casualties.  So many that there is little propaganda value to the US in documenting each and every one.

      If it wasn't inhumane, troops would not need to be trained to do it.  Or to have constructed elaborate mythologies to justify it.

      War is politics by other means, says Clauswitz.  That means that war is finally a failure of politicians to do their jobs.  Our easy rush to war suits only those addicted to their blood lust.

      50 states, 210 media market, 435 Congressional Districts, 3080 counties, 192,480 precincts

      by TarheelDem on Sat Aug 09, 2014 at 03:08:55 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Are you referring to ISIS or to Saudi Arabia? (4+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        gjohnsit, lotlizard, G2geek, YucatanMan

        Except for the bombings, which the Saudis do finance indirectly, Saudi justice includes all of the other punishments.  Perversely, at auction last year, I acquired an executioner's sword which was presented to a US diplomat to the UAE after being used to execute a criminal.  That part of the world is swift and brutal in its justice where the US would prefer to lock a guy in a box for 30 years with no human contact to show how much more humane we are

        •  I was referring to an number of (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          blueoasis, G2geek

          ...groups commonly referred to as terrorists in their operations in war zones.  ISIS is the latest to be used for outrage amplification.

          My emphasis in this case is that it is a tactic used to spead their advance.

          What studies have shown is that swiftness and surety of justice is more deterrent than brutality of justice.

          I suppose the gift to the diplomat served the purpose of involving the diplomat, who could not refuse it, in the responsibility for the brutality.  Or was it a friendly warning about the limits of diplomatic immunity?

          50 states, 210 media market, 435 Congressional Districts, 3080 counties, 192,480 precincts

          by TarheelDem on Sat Aug 09, 2014 at 04:21:46 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  I have no idea; while the auction house (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            TarheelDem, G2geek

            provided the provenance, the family is mum about the circumstances outside of the bare bones of the details of the event.

            It appears the Saudi form of Sharia would be very effective then as it is most assuredly swift and sure as well as brutal.  However the argument can be made that some regimes are terroristic  themselves  as they terrorize their citizens and their neighbors such as Pol Pot, Idi Amin, Gaddafi, and well, you know the list...........    

        •  thereby demonstrating that our diplomats... (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          SoCalSal

          ... have to have nerves of steel and an absolutely extraordinary capacity for defusing situations that would make most of us go stark staring screaming bonkers.

          We got the future back. Uh-oh.

          by G2geek on Sat Aug 09, 2014 at 09:05:44 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  You have too much.... (0+ / 0-)

          ...money if that is what you do with it.

          We Glory in war, in the shedding of human blood. What fools we are.

          by delver rootnose on Sat Aug 09, 2014 at 10:23:48 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  That is true (7+ / 0-)
       I believe it has renounced its Marxist-Leninist views after its leader was jailed.
       They changed their self-designation to "libertarian socialist", which is another term for "democratic anarchist".

      "The oppressors most powerful weapon is the mind of the oppressed." - Stephen Biko

      by gjohnsit on Sat Aug 09, 2014 at 03:32:47 PM PDT

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      •  Actually (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        lotlizard, PeteZerria, gjohnsit

        ...the term "democratic anarchist" isn't really a term anyone in the movement would likely use, although I know what you mean.  Some anarchists (but by no means all) reject the term "democracy" altogether, since it tends to mean top-down representational democracy, and statism, rather than the high degree of horizontality and respect for individual liberty of anarchism. But I do use the term, but simply mean the more fair and egalitarian form of anarchist free association.

        I'm reading a history of anarchism at the moment whose author makes this case, and he loathes what most people think of as democracy.

        Libertarian socialism is really just a synonym for anarchism, since it was anarchists of all stripes who began using the term interchangeably throughout the literature going back to the mid 1800's. And anarchists don't tend to attach an appendage to the term anarchism, unless differentiating between types of anarchism, (for example anarcho-communism, anarcho-collectivism, social anarchism, individual anarchism, anarcho-syndicalism) all of which are based on egalitarianism, equality, anti-capitalism, and no wage-labor. All are "democratic" so that doesn't need to be said, but it is democracy that is far more reluctant to impose any form of unjustified coercion or authority over individuals.

        "Liberty without socialism is privilege, injustice; socialism without liberty is slavery and brutality." - Michael Bakunin (Economic Left/Right: -10.00 Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -9.79)

        by ZhenRen on Sat Aug 09, 2014 at 06:34:39 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  The Kurds call it (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          lotlizard, gjohnsit

          Democratic Confederalism, which is based on Bookchin's ideas of communalism, a branch of libertarian socialism.

          Bookchin split from anarchism, devising a new related form called communalism. It is still anarchistic... but with some modifications.

          "Liberty without socialism is privilege, injustice; socialism without liberty is slavery and brutality." - Michael Bakunin (Economic Left/Right: -10.00 Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -9.79)

          by ZhenRen on Sat Aug 09, 2014 at 06:54:21 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  I don't mean to be a pesk on definitions (0+ / 0-)

        I tend to offer a more comprehensive view on this when the opportunity arises, because readers here are really, really confused about this, as I'm sure you've noticed.

        I should write a diary on the topic, but at the moment would rather hold off for personal reasons.

        "Liberty without socialism is privilege, injustice; socialism without liberty is slavery and brutality." - Michael Bakunin (Economic Left/Right: -10.00 Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -9.79)

        by ZhenRen on Sat Aug 09, 2014 at 06:38:13 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  that's preferable to religious fanatic. (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        gjohnsit

        Presumably this group is more secular than some of them?

        In which case, rational people we can make rational agreements with.

        The key to that distinction is: death-averse ideologies, vs. martyrdom ideologies.  

        We got the future back. Uh-oh.

        by G2geek on Sat Aug 09, 2014 at 09:07:17 PM PDT

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    •  terrorist has become meaningless around (7+ / 0-)

      the world as we willy nilly label every anti-government movement as terrorist if we happen to support that government.
      It was my understanding that our interventions in the ME was to stabilize the region and democratize the nations there (OK OK, stop laughing at me.)  However we do that by propping up various dictators, monarchs and generals.  For a generality, it seems the countries that enjoy the least US interference in their affairs seem to be more stable.

      One problem is our commitment to various regimes in the area, regardless of our own long term interests.  A second problem is the Saudi fight to maintain a proxy war against Iran.  So far, Saudi interference has destabilized whichever  country they are involved in and has unleashed fundamentalist religious fanaticism across two continents

    •  How about we call people who kill people for (8+ / 0-)

      policy results "Terrorists".

      That will make it much easier.

      Democracy - 1 person 1 vote. Free Markets - More dollars more power.

      by k9disc on Sat Aug 09, 2014 at 04:17:31 PM PDT

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    •  Good point. He certainly grabbed dived into that (7+ / 0-)

      quagmire with enthusiasm, didn't he?

      BTW, the word has never had any meaning. The terrorist label has been slapped on every force that fought established power for centuries. According to the British Parliament, the U.S. was founded by terrorists.

      "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities." - Voltaire

      by Greyhound on Sat Aug 09, 2014 at 06:05:05 PM PDT

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    •  problem with that is, it spills over. (0+ / 0-)

      Letting the cats in a sack tear each other to shreds sounds fine so long as they stay in the sack.

      9/11 and 7/7 demonstrated that they don't stay in the sack.

      See also the Moore's Law curve for genetic technology and the growing ease of making & unleashing a plague.  

      Bottom line is, civilization is "not optional" in a world where any asshole with a grudge can build a highly contagious lethal virus in a shed.

      We got the future back. Uh-oh.

      by G2geek on Sat Aug 09, 2014 at 09:00:12 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

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