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View Diary: Hillary Clinton can only win with the Obama coalition (400 comments)

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  •  Then people must be horribly misinformed (12+ / 0-)

    about her positions on the issues. I wonder if all the liberals who support her realize she has a neo-conservative foreign policy and that she's very cozy with Wall Street? I suspect many liberals are supporting her entirely because of her gender, knowing little or nothing about what she actually stands for on policy.

    The most serious problem in American politics today is that people with wrong ideas are uncompromising, and people with good ideas are submissive and unwilling to fight. Change that, and we might have a real democracy again.

    by Eric Stetson on Sun Aug 17, 2014 at 07:02:38 PM PDT

    [ Parent ]

    •  This is politics... (4+ / 0-)

      ...policy and a quarter will buy you the morning paper.

      People vote party, then race, tribe, religion -- or lack of it -- narrative, the general state of the economy, and then, finally, policy.

      The notion that elections are primarily policy referenda doesn't withstand close examination.  Scholars can't find much to support such a contention, in fact there's some evidence that people make more personality-related mentions than issue mentions the more politically sophisticated (i.e. paying attention) they are.

      The superfluous goods of the rich are necessary to the poor, and when you possess the superfluous you possess what is not yours." St. Augustine

      by Davis X Machina on Sun Aug 17, 2014 at 07:17:11 PM PDT

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      •  Probably true. But tribal affiliations change. (4+ / 0-)

        A whole generation could be alienated from the Democratic Party "tribe" because of the Democratic establishment trying to cram a conservative Hillary Clinton down their young liberal throats.

        The most serious problem in American politics today is that people with wrong ideas are uncompromising, and people with good ideas are submissive and unwilling to fight. Change that, and we might have a real democracy again.

        by Eric Stetson on Sun Aug 17, 2014 at 07:26:30 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  I wouldn't count on it... (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          AaronInSanDiego

          ...the social democratic moment has been just around the corner my entire life, and I'm almost 60.

          If you see a youth realignment, it'll be towards the right. Going by the Gallup numbers, the Democrats’ share of young voters peaked in 2008 at 58 percent.

          The superfluous goods of the rich are necessary to the poor, and when you possess the superfluous you possess what is not yours." St. Augustine

          by Davis X Machina on Sun Aug 17, 2014 at 07:42:12 PM PDT

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          •  To the right? Why? (3+ / 0-)

            Most young people are deep in college debt, have crappy jobs and little opportunity for advancement into the norms of the middle class such as homeownership, and understand that they are being screwed by the big money establishment. They also are liberal on social issues and liberal on civil liberties issues.

            I can't think of any logical reason why the young would decide to become conservative -- except perhaps because they also believe government is ineffective and corrupt. I think it's more likely that they will shift into political apathy because neither party represents their views.

            I could be wrong. Why do you think they will shift to the right? I'm interested to hear your reasoning.

            The most serious problem in American politics today is that people with wrong ideas are uncompromising, and people with good ideas are submissive and unwilling to fight. Change that, and we might have a real democracy again.

            by Eric Stetson on Sun Aug 17, 2014 at 07:49:24 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Political apathy... (3+ / 0-)

              ....isn't ideologically neutral. It's also an ideology. It has implict conclusions about the state, and the role of the public -- or the simple existence of a public, baked right in.

              When you think about it, 'No Logo' is actually a kind of brand, too.

              The superfluous goods of the rich are necessary to the poor, and when you possess the superfluous you possess what is not yours." St. Augustine

              by Davis X Machina on Sun Aug 17, 2014 at 08:08:55 PM PDT

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              •  True. But it's the result of learned helplessness. (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Palafox, cybrestrike

                People become politically apathetic because they learn, through experience, that their participation in the democratic process cannot meaningfully affect what government does. That is what many young people have learned as a result of passionately supporting Obama and then seeing him unable to accomplish much in office, or not even trying very hard to fight against conservative Republicans. They have seen him both stymied by Republicans and selling out to them.

                What will many of these young people learn from this? They might learn that government cannot work to accomplish liberal goals in society. If that's the lesson they take from it, then they will become libertarian, but they may still retain their liberal values and work for those values entirely through the non-governmental sector.

                So, in that sense, perhaps they will move to the right (if you define libertarianism as being part of the "right"). Perhaps they already are. There certainly is nowhere near as much belief now among the young in the realistic potential to solve problems in society through the government. Because they have seen that even a huge wave election for Democrats in 2008 had very little effect on political policy. So the natural response is to decide that American democracy does not reflect the will of the people, i.e. it is systemically broken, and to decide no longer to hope in the idea of an activist government to solve problems.

                The most serious problem in American politics today is that people with wrong ideas are uncompromising, and people with good ideas are submissive and unwilling to fight. Change that, and we might have a real democracy again.

                by Eric Stetson on Sun Aug 17, 2014 at 08:18:07 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Learned helplessness.... (0+ / 0-)

                  ....is just false consciousness in a tuxedo.

                  Because they have seen that even a huge wave election for Democrats in 2008 had very little effect on political policy.
                  Anyone who voted for a University of Chicago law professor expecting him to seize the commanding heights of the economy in the name of the workers, and call on us to expropriate the expropriators was a fool.

                  And anyone who understands how Congress works who expected a sungle-payer health care system, or a nationalized banking system, doesn't actually understand Congress.

                  The superfluous goods of the rich are necessary to the poor, and when you possess the superfluous you possess what is not yours." St. Augustine

                  by Davis X Machina on Mon Aug 18, 2014 at 06:04:16 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

    •  If she keeps (0+ / 0-)

      this nasty neocon kill kill kill talk up they will figure it out quick enough. She also is going to have to talk about her neoliberal, wall street loving, deregulating, privatizing, outsourcing, 1% global economic war on ordinary people. She's not even going to tell us she feels our pain. she once said she should be running in India as the Clinton's policies raised their economic boats.

      I agree about the polling as name recognition, gender identification and the fact that the republican field consists of president worst evil  RW hardliner yet. What I don't understand is why she is all we are offered. People keep saying who do you suggest like there aren't any real actual Democrat's who could take on the Republican hardliners. How about Grayson? Merkley? are there no Democratic governors from the democratic wing of the party?

      If the Democratic party electoral machine actually put their considerable resources behind a actual populist Democratic candidate they would win hands down. Name recognition is created, look at Obama. I don't think for a minute they will as the last thing the Third Wayer's who own and run our party want is a populist liberal democratic administration or majority in congress.

      Poll after poll show's that the majority of people in this country are not RW nut jobs but instead are pretty liberal on most issues. Thing is, as we found starting in 2006, the in the bag Dems with power do not want to 'move forward' with a democratic agenda. They maybe slightly better then the lunatic of the RW but as we saw with Romney it's just a matter of degrees.  

      If the Democrat's won't fight the Republicans what good are they? It's what happens after they are elected that makes people not vote for them. they blew it big time when people showed up and resoundingly voted against the very policy and direction the Democrat's in power have implemented since 2006.  

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