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View Diary: Chief Jackson contradicts Chief Jackson on details of robbery, shooting of unarmed teen (144 comments)

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  •  "Jackson is clearly connecting the two events" (0+ / 0-)

    I'm in the minority feeling there may be some connection and therefore, it's not unreasonable to provide such a chronology of events since there seems to be a concern with rioting and a rush to judgement in some media circles.

    Before I start, for clarity, I don't care what a criminal has done. If they are unarmed and put their hands up to surrender, they shouldn't be shot or shooting should stop immediately.

    Having said that, some stuff I'd read before today suggested Mike Brown was a nice, honest, gentle student. The video of the robbery (now posted on CNN) strongly suggests otherwise.
    http://www.cnn.com/...

    It demonstrates three things to me:
    A) he's a thief - not the nice honest guy previously portrayed
    B) he's capable of using his size to assault and/or intimidate another person - he's not the gentle giant some portrayed him as
    C) he'd just committed a crime before he came into contact with the police officer who shot him

    Mike Brown's friend Johnson, who was with him at the time of the shooting and at that store with Mike, and Mike Brown's own family have ID'd Mike Brown as being the thief in that video.

    So what does that have to do with the shooting?
    1) It supports the notion that Mike Brown may not have been respectful or nice to the police officer and that might have contributed to starting an altercation between them
    2) It supports the notion that Mike Brown was capable of assaulting the police officer and may have
    3) It provides a motive for Mike Brown to behave in such a way to evade apprehension for the robbery, even though the police officer had not ID'd him for it yet at the time - but Mike Brown may not have known that or feared it when the officer backed up his cruiser
    4) As stealing was not below Mike Brown, it provides the possibility Mike Brown tried to take the officer's gun

    The above points are unproven conjecture or merely possibilities.

    Again, none of that provides the right for an officer to shoot an unarmed man with his hands up to surrender (as some accounts say that happened but remains to be proven beyond reasonable doubt).

    But if 1-4 happened, then the punishment for the police officer if he shot an unarmed man with his hands up should be less than if they didn't happen.

    With concerns about public safety and rioting and maybe now for the safety of the police officer, the above being release might give some pause that there might be another side to this story to allow justice to take it's proper course.

    •  Hello Sucker, Chief Jackson has your number (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      AmazingBlaise, buffie

      You're ASS-uming that the "truthiness" currently offered by the Ferguson Police Department bears any resemblance to the facts.

      There's a lot we still don't know, including whether this even was an attempt at "shoplifting" or whether the convenience store clerk refused to sell because underage or "we don't sell to high-schoolers" or whatever, whether anything was said - on either side - to inflame tempers, and WHY IT TOOK SO DAMN LONG FOR THIS TAPE TO SURFACE.

      Did the Ferguson PD have it and were they saving it for a strategic moment? (Bad move - should have let it out ASAP.)

      Did they NOT have it, and it only turned up NOW, so CONVEEENIENTLY?

      Is it for real? (We KNOW that video can be altered in any way to produce any effect desired - how many of you have seen the "Obama door-kicking" clip?)

      If it's
      Not your body,
      Then it's
      Not your choice
      And it's
      None of your damn business!

      by TheOtherMaven on Fri Aug 15, 2014 at 03:25:18 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Sorry, read and weep (0+ / 0-)

        http://www.stltoday.com/...

        The lawyer for Johnson, who was walking with Michael Brown when Wilson fatally shot Brown, said Johnson told authorities about the cigar theft earlier this week.

        “He told them about the cigarillos and that Big Mike took cigarillos,” said the lawyer, former St. Louis Mayor Freeman Bosley Jr.

        That's pretty damning when the potential accomplice who was there with Mike fingers Mike Brown with theft of those cigars. They also have two store witnesses who called 911 to report that theft of the cigars while that video was rolling. And the clothing of the perpetrator matches the clothes on Mike Brown's dead body.

        The Brown family also ID'd Mike Brown in the video today at their press conference.

        I sincerely doubt with all that that Mike Brown did not steal those cigars. They have ample witnesses and evidence he did.

        also in that story:

        Jackson said the officer was aware cigars had been taken in the robbery of a store nearby, but did not know when he encountered Brown and Dorian Johnson that they might be suspects. He stopped them because they were walking in the street, Jackson said.

        But Jackson told the Post-Dispatch that the officer, Darren Wilson, saw cigars in Brown's hand and realized he might be the robber.

        which may have been why the officer backed up his cruiser after he started to drive off. He realized who they were as he drove away. And that could easily explain why the altercation started then and why Mike Brown allegedly resisted at that point - he didn't want to get caught just like he didn't want the store employee to stop him.

        I don't buy your conspiracy theories.

        •  You were listening to Poozer Blither, weren't you? (0+ / 0-)

          I heard him on Cop New Network this afternoon - he made absolute scrambled hash of the story, getting almost everything wrong.

          If it's
          Not your body,
          Then it's
          Not your choice
          And it's
          None of your damn business!

          by TheOtherMaven on Fri Aug 15, 2014 at 04:50:49 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Never heard of him (0+ / 0-)

            I haven't "listened" to anyone in the media on radio or the tube. I've just focused on the evidence and testimony of the parties involved.

            I have little doubt Brown stole those cigars.

            I strongly suspect that officer shot him with his hands up.

            Beyond that, and how it got to that point, time will tell what else turns up.

    •  Watched video AFTER reading your comment and (0+ / 0-)

      it wasn't at all what I expected based on your description and the tone of your remarks.

      First of all, I will take you at your word that the person in the video, who we see only from the waist down, is Milke Brown (since you say the family doesn't dispute that...link?).  

      HOWEVER..you neglect to note that the store clerk grabs Mike FIRST and tries to block him from leaving the store.  Mike then pushes him out of his way and tries to leave.  Since we don't KNOW that Mike stole anything (Mike's "friend" may or may not be telling the truth about Mike stealing and Mike is DEAD so he can't tell his side of the story), Mike's REACTION to the store clerk may or may not have been justified.

      Second, even if it we were certain that Mike did steal the cigarillos and push the clerk after being physically confronted, it DOES NOT necessarily follow that he was brave enough or stupid enough to be "capabable of assaulting a police officer".

      Finally, even IF we were certain that "stealing was not below Mike Brown" (your choice of words is interesting), it is quite a leap to think he "tried to take the officer's gun".  

      The only thing you said that we can all agree on is your assertion that

      The above points are unproven conjecture or merely possibilities.

      Again, none of that provides the right for an officer to shoot an unarmed man with his hands up to surrender

      - The hope of a secure and livable world lies with disciplined nonconformists who are dedicated to justice, peace and brotherhood. Martin Luther King, Jr. -

      by FreeWoman19 on Fri Aug 15, 2014 at 03:52:33 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Correction: We can see Mike's face in parts (0+ / 0-)

        of the video but my comment stands as I took it as a given that Mike is the person in the video.

        - The hope of a secure and livable world lies with disciplined nonconformists who are dedicated to justice, peace and brotherhood. Martin Luther King, Jr. -

        by FreeWoman19 on Fri Aug 15, 2014 at 04:03:12 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  That doesn't make sense (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      mjd in florida, buffie

      The Police Chief has clearly stated that the reason the cop  confronted Brown and Johnson was that they were walking in the street and not beacuse they were suspects in an alleged robbery.  He stated that the cop didn't know anything about the alleged robbery.

      Your conjecture is a bit far fetched.  The cop had already indicated to them that the reason he was confronting them was to get them out of the street and not to question them about a robbery. What is this "respectful and nice" thing?  The public is not required to be subservient to cops.  How does it support the notion that he may have "assualted" the officer when, from accounts so far, the altercation apparently started when the officer grabbed Brown while he was inside of his car and Brown was outside the car.

      Finally how on earth does the possibility of stealing rellos from a convience store "provide the possibilty" that Brwon tried to take the officer's gun?  That really doesn't make sense.

      •  See my post above (0+ / 0-)

        Initially, the officer asked them to get off the road. He started to drive off. According to Jackson, the officer was aware of the recent theft of cigars because as the transcript shows, the theft had been broadcast on the police radio. When he first engaged them, he hadn't joined the dots between Brown and Johnson being involved with the cigar theft - he was concerned with them blocking the road. But as he drove off, it appears it clicked in and he backed up his cruiser. According to Jackson, the officer did report that he saw Brown holding cigars in his hand. It had to be after he drove off or he wouldn't have driven off. And it was after the officer backed up that the altercation between Brown and the officer started.

        Now, that remains to be proven beyond reasonable doubt but it is very plausible and consistent with the records, evidence and testimony I've seen so far.

        Again, that doesn't excuse the officer to shoot am unarmed man with his hands up.

        •  Thanks for the conjecture. n/t (0+ / 0-)
        •  I saw your post above... (0+ / 0-)

          ..and your conjecture is still dubious.  It's pretty obvious that Jackson is crafting the department's story to aid his cop's defense strategy and leaving it to folks like you to "fill in" the gaps.   Also, I saw the press conference so I'll believe my lying eyes over your excerpts.

          So, six days after the event we get nothing official about the shooting nor the autopsy report nor any incident reports but we get a carefully crafted tale about an alleged robbery that was so suspect and transparent a smear attempt that they have to clarify it shortly after they release it.   C'mon now...

          Of course, it's done its intended pr job on folks like you who have rushed to provide negative conjecture for the later actions of Brown and positive conjecture for the later actions of the cop.  

          In any event, the real problem is that they have too many live and credible witnesses, including the person who was with Brown, for the usual tactic to work.

          •  Jackson maintains he was responding to FOIA (0+ / 0-)

            requests to release info on the robbery.

            Here's some evidence of why (note the date and time of the tweet):
            Tweet discussing it 7:16 AM - 10 Aug 2014
            https://twitter.com/...

            Michael SkolnikVerified account
            ‏@MichaelSkolnik
            Ferguson police are only ones saying #MikeBrown stole something from store. Parents went to store + workers said they never called police.
            7:16 AM - 10 Aug 2014
            and there were other tweets on this back then

            What evidence do they now have on Mike committing that robbery:
            - a 911 call about the robbery while the video was running
            - a video of much of the robbery
            - a police log showing the call going out on the radio
            - other officers who investigated the robbery and gathered evidence against Mike in their reports
            - two store employee witnesses probable to point the finger at Mike
            - Johnson, Mike's buddy who was with him at the time and in that store, saying Mike stole the cigars
            - Brown's family admitting to the media it's Mike in the video
            - Mike's size, appearance and clothing in the video matching photos of Mike's dead body in the street
            - Mike caught within minutes of the robbery within a few minutes walking distance from that store
            - an officer saying he saw Mike with cigars
            - and they very likely have the stolen cigars with Mike's fingerprints and DNA on them

            That's a lot more compelling evidence for that crime than we have against the cop who shot Mike but folks are blowing it off as a conspiracy while they already have the cop guilty. Doesn't seem right or balanced to me.

            We know the store called the police as it's in the police dispatch radio logs and the police reports say the store was on the phone with 911 during the later half of the video of the robbery. The store probably denied calling 911 to the public in an attempt to protect themselves.

            But it didn't do them much good:

            By August 11th, the QuikTrip that had been robbed:
            http://localtvktvi.files.wordpress.com/...
            had been burned down by the angry mob who shamefully rushed to judgement about QuikTrip and took a few jobs out along with the store. What did the store do wrong to deserve that? In my opinion, that's a disgrace and symbolizes some of the garbage I've seen on this story - people joining dots on scant details and rushing to judgement. And who is crying out for justice for the store? The crickets are deafening.

            Your spin that the police just pulled this together to craft a story yesterday don't look so hot, does it? You're starting to sound like a friggin' birther here with the conspiracy stuff. By all means, be suspicious and vigilant the police might cover things up to protect one of their own but we have to confine ourselves to the known facts and evidence and try to be patient as there is more to come. It's called "due process".

            As for your "PR" claim, in the wake of the riots, where the police produce solid evidence that Brown is very likely culpable for the robbery, this kind of factual information  might knock a few angry, store burning folks back on their heels. I think it was a good thing to reveal more about the robbery for public safety. The victim does not appear to be as much of a saint as the media was portraying him as 24 hrs before. Some logical, rational folks are probably going "ok, wait a second here ... there's obviously more and a second side to this story .." There usually is as it usually takes two to fight.

            I think the police were being forthright when they said the officer initially asked them to get off the road. And forthright in the hours after the shooting to bring up the robbery. And the facts around that seem to back them up.

            The shooting investigation has been passed on to the St. Louis County police and the FBI. Chief Jackson and his police force are out of it. If you want info on that, you're going to have to wait until those other parties have completed their investigation. That's the protocol when the howling from the angry mob demanded Jackson and his crew withdraw from that. And I think it's a good call to have outside law enforcement scrutinize it under these circumstances.

            The Coroner, not Chief Jackson, does the autopsy. If you want that info, don't expect it from Jackson - call up the Coroner. Again, that is the normal procedure and protocol. Sometimes, it can be weeks while they wait for test results. The ballistics evidence recovered from the body will go to the St. Louis County police and the FBI - not Chief Jackson.

            So your criticism of Chief Jackson not producing the autopsy and police reports related to the shooting is on very shaky ground because that is clearly out of his hands as it should be. And law enforcement typically doesn't comment much on ongoing investigations so they do not compromise their investigation. That supersedes FOIA requests.

            We have a good justice system. It's not perfect but it's all we've got. Let's cool it so no more folks get hurt and be patient in our support trying to make that system bring the justice to Mike Brown's family they deserve in an orderly fashion fairly based upon the law and evidence.

            •  Correction (0+ / 0-)

              it was not the QuikTrip that got robbed that got burned. It was another one. A number of them got damaged. More last night including the particular one that got robbed.

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