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View Diary: UPDATED: Not to be believed, there's been another shooting near Ferguson ... (311 comments)

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    •  Peace Officers = Jumbo Shrimp (13+ / 0-)

      “My soul is from elsewhere, I'm sure of that, and I intend to end up there." - Rumi

      by LamontCranston on Tue Aug 19, 2014 at 03:28:13 PM PDT

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    •  Don't they get ANY training (21+ / 0-)

      in how to disarm a perhaps mentally ill (from the sound of it) man brandishing a KNIFE, for god's sake??? What about shooting for the fucking HAND? I am so sick of this too, and I am an older, white female — not the demographic under attack. This country has been taken over by a level of fear, meanness, and bigotry that doesn't say good things about who we are as a people.

      Ed FitzGerald for governor Of Ohio. Women's lives depend on it.

      by anastasia p on Tue Aug 19, 2014 at 03:28:15 PM PDT

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      •  Respectfully, shooting for the hand is a bad idea. (18+ / 0-)

        A gun is lethal force and it should not be used absent the intent to kill.  Aiming for the hand is a tricky shot and it would easily miss, endangering the lives of bystanders. Officers should be firing at the center of mass or not at all.  Preferably not at all.

        The fact of the matter is that the police need to slow down, use their words, and stop seeing every incident through this bullshit Warrior Cop mode.  And if they are so damned scared of a man with a knife, when they have the full support of a militarized police force behind them, then maybe they ought to consider a different line of work.  

        "If you can find money to kill people, you can find money to help people." -Tony Benn (-6.38,-6.36)

        by The Rational Hatter on Tue Aug 19, 2014 at 03:44:18 PM PDT

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        •  He wanted a pastry, and maybe couldn't (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          jan4insight, miss SPED

          afford it.   He threw it out the door, or so I heard on first news accounts.  

          NO ONE there thought that he might have a medical condition and NEED a pastry?  

          NO ONE said, "Hey, man, chill out... You feeling bad? Can I buy you a donut?  Co-cola?"

          What the HELL is wrong with these people?!

        •  Respectfully.... (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Neo Control, The Rational Hatter

          Yo'ure right about why shooting for the hand is an awful idea.

          Respectfully, however, I think you're seeing this incident through the wrong prism. From all accounts, the police were using their words, trying to talk to him, instead of simply tasering him...when it got out of hand. And, if you're saying a cop should just stand there and let someone stab him with a lethal weapon, I think you're either not thinking about what you're saying or you're a little crazy. Cops make a decent living, but they're not paid enough to just sacrifice themselves rather than defend themselves when attacked. There isn't enough money in the world for that....unless you're hiring jihadist martyrs.

          Coming Soon -- to an Internet connection near you:

          by FischFry on Tue Aug 19, 2014 at 07:20:14 PM PDT

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          •  I don't have enough information to make a (0+ / 0-)

            determination.  My comments were rather broad I'll admit.  However, in instances where these types of things happen I usually fall in the camp that thinks the cops could have done more. A man is dead, the cops signed on for a "dangerous" (not according to BLS stats, but whatever) job and if they don't like answering uncomfortable questions when they shoot someone they should get a job that doesn't put them in those situations.  

            I'm not saying that a cop should just let them stab them.  But I am saying that situations are escalated to the use of lethal force far too easily and without a level of oversight that I, as a citizen, feel should be there.  

            "If you can find money to kill people, you can find money to help people." -Tony Benn (-6.38,-6.36)

            by The Rational Hatter on Wed Aug 20, 2014 at 09:58:04 AM PDT

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      •  I was cop once (3+ / 0-)

        We are not super human. We are human. Most of us are doing a job you yourself don't want to do and don't pay us enough to do. We see suffering and filth and horror you cannot imagine. I once saw a father take his infant son and slam his head against the wall. But no, I did not kill him.
        Shoot for the hand. Most us only shoot a hundred rounds a year at the firing range.
        We are not movie cops.
        I bet when you need a cop, you wish  we were there for you.
        The kindest thing you can do is hold your opinion to yourself.

        I am a Liberal. I am not a Progressive. If you are a Progressive you are part of the problem, not part of the solution.

        by LemmyCaution on Tue Aug 19, 2014 at 06:34:45 PM PDT

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        •  So tell your local government (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Ginny in CO

          Only recruit college graduates and pay them over $75K a year to start.

          I am a Liberal. I am not a Progressive. If you are a Progressive you are part of the problem, not part of the solution.

          by LemmyCaution on Tue Aug 19, 2014 at 07:11:34 PM PDT

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        •  I appreciate your adding some real perspective (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Beelzebubs Brass Bs

          That is sadly lacking in this mindless rage venting.

          I had this discussion with my g/f's kid. They're not movie cops. They can't just shoot a guy in the leg to disable him or hit his hand to disarm him.

          Sure, in retrospect they should've tasered him. I find it a bit ironic that people are offering up that bit of wisdom, when a week ago many of them would have been aghast at some news story about the police tasering someone on the street who was just yelling about something or other, either agitated or mentally ill. I'd guess the police thought they were using some measure of restraint in not tasering him, trying to talk with him...until he charged them with the knife...and then it was just instinctual self-defense.

          Coming Soon -- to an Internet connection near you:

          by FischFry on Tue Aug 19, 2014 at 07:15:40 PM PDT

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      •  Of course they do. (3+ / 0-)

        However, a police officer should never be expected to engage in hand-to-hand combat with someone aggressively attacking or approaching with a knife unless she has no options. If they were required to do so, it would be impossible in some areas to get any police officers with an IQ over 80 or an education past fourth grade since the chance of them surviving a twenty year career would be too small and such applicants would know that.

        It's one thing for an individual who may in their lifetime encounter 0.001 aggressive knife wielding individuals and are responsible for handling the situation (rather than calling someone else to handle it or run away) to make a decision to risk their lives in that responsibility. It's quite another thing if it happens on your job once a week (esp. after people figure out you must engage in hand-to-hand combat rather than use lethal force).

        I can do a lot of things in my home shop that would be illegal to do on a job site due to OSHA regulations. Being a police officer is a JOB and not one that should subject you to higher risk of death or serious injury than necessary.

        Yes, police should try to get the person to voluntarily disarm, take a reasonable amount of time to do so, and use non-lethal force where practical without significantly increasing the risk to themselves. Where feasible, they should be equipped with practical non-lethal means of gaining compliance (tasers etc.). However, if a person poses a danger to the officer or others and fails to comply with orders that would reduce that risk, police must be able to take the necessary initiative to reduce that risk to acceptable levels - which require lethal force.

        BTW, shooting "for the hand" is absurd. I understand that most people here on DK have probably never trained with handguns, but it's nearly impossible to execute reliably. The real world is not like old Hollywood Westerns (the old West wasn't like them either!). As well, firing at someone is classified as lethal force so it can't be done if lethal force is not justified. It also likely risks injuring or killing bystanders more than shooting at the center of mass (due to the difficulty of hitting a small, possibly fast moving target, more shots will be likely be fired at the hand before achieving the goal and and even a direct hit on the hand leaves a bullet with much more residual energy and risk of injury than one that has passed through [if it even does] more tissue and bone).

        Waiting for details of this particular case of course...

      •  I learned how to disarm a man with a knife (3+ / 0-)

        in a karate class at the age of 12. Then there is Monty Python - Self-Defense Against Fruit, which is far too true.

        Back off, man. I'm a logician.—GOPBusters™

        by Mokurai on Tue Aug 19, 2014 at 08:26:09 PM PDT

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