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View Diary: AG Holder's Message To the People of Ferguson (166 comments)

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  •  Well, say what you mean (25+ / 0-)

    You believe Holder is merely kidding around? Is insincere, ineffectual--has no intention of even trying to do what he has laid out in his statement--what? And more to the point--why?

    God bless our tinfoil hearts.

    by aitchdee on Tue Aug 19, 2014 at 03:30:11 PM PDT

    [ Parent ]

    •  Stop putting words in my mouth. (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      corvo

      NO, I DON'T THINK HOLDER IS KIDDING AROUND.

      But I do know that his power in this situation is very limited.  The Justice Department can fine Ferguson for civil rights offenses.

      Please enlighten me how Holder can criminally charge anyone on this incident.  Seriously, I'd love to know, and I would be damn happy to hear it.

      Educate me, please.  

      Dallasdoc: "Snowden is the natural successor to Osama bin Laden as the most consequential person in the world, as his actions have the potential to undo those taken in response to Osama."

      by gooderservice on Tue Aug 19, 2014 at 03:38:32 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I didn't put words in your mouth, gooder (22+ / 0-)

        I repeated your own words:

        Who's kidding whom.
        That's what you wrote, under which you blockquoted about half of AG Holder's statement.

        So I'll ask you again, what's with the sour, defeatist attitude here?

        God bless our tinfoil hearts.

        by aitchdee on Tue Aug 19, 2014 at 03:45:19 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Think about it (9+ / 0-)

        There are reasons for pessimism.  But if you think for a moment, you'll see that the AG has the ear of the President on a daily basis.  All the functions of government flow from that.  New programs, new laws, new guidelines beyond the bounds of the DOJ may all stem from this incident.  In the best case.

        This does not replace an effective prosecution at the local and state level, but it does suggest the possibility of many things at the federal level.  Of course, the entire affair may pass without anything substantial being done.  Pessimism is hard to suppress.  But there is a chance for some good things to happen here.  A chance.

      •  goodservice - the DoJ could indict Warren (4+ / 0-)

        on a criminal civil rights charge like that brought against the LAPD officers who beat up Rodney King. However, that decision will not be made for weeks, or longer. The DoJ will wait and see what the St. Louis County DA decides to do. The criminal civil rights charges have a very difficult burden of proof, so we don't see them that often.

        "let's talk about that" uid 92953

        by VClib on Tue Aug 19, 2014 at 06:52:36 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Long shot at best (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Pi Li, divineorder, gooderservice

          If the state government can't get a murder/manslaughter charge to stick, the Feds won't be able to charge him with civil rights violations. For what, shooting a guy in self-defense? (Which will be the message an acquittal sends).

          No way. He's either convicted on a state homicide charge (in which case the civil rights charge just adds time, big whoop), or he won't be charged with anything. Holder doesn't add anything to the equation here in terms of the Brown shooting.

          Maybe they can reign in the Ferguson police, but do you think the DoJ is going to take on the issue in toto of police militarization? Don't make me laugh.

          (-5.50,-6.67): Left Libertarian
          Leadership doesn't mean taking a straw poll and then just throwing up your hands. -Jyrinx

          by Sparhawk on Tue Aug 19, 2014 at 08:18:26 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  You and the "up rater " league (5+ / 0-)

            are wrong as usual

             A G Holder is probably already making a difference in how the PD and state is conducting the investigation and the collection of data etc , so Team Holder adds a lot to the equation here in terms of the Brown shooting.

            Mississippi civil rights workers' murders

            Because Mississippi officials refused to prosecute the killers for murder, a state crime, the federal government, led by prosecutor John Doar, charged 18 individuals under 18 U.S.C. §242 and §371 with conspiring to deprive the three of their civil rights (by murder). They indicted Sheriff Rainey, Deputy Sheriff Price and 16 other men.

            Those found guilty on October 20, 1967, were Cecil Price, Klan Imperial Wizard Samuel Bowers, Alton Wayne Roberts, Jimmy Snowden, Billey Wayne Posey, Horace Barnett, and Jimmy Arledge

            http://en.wikipedia.org/...

            If Mozz authorities try and pull a fast one , The U S A G will make a difference in exposing it and go after anyone who is involved in a cover up

            And it would be a hell of a lot different if G W Bush and John Ashcroft were in charge

            Beer Drinkers & Hell Raisers

            by Patango on Tue Aug 19, 2014 at 09:31:01 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  LOL (5+ / 0-)

              A Wikipedia lawyer.

              Here's the bottom line: with regards to the shooting itself, absent a showing of racial animus on the part of Wilson....i.e. he shot Brown specifically because of a racial bias, there's no Federal civil rights case. Period.  The civil rights prosecutions you mentioned were able to occur because those murders were racially motivated. The same element must be present in the Brown case.

              Now, whether Holder finds something going on there with regard to the police department that he wants to look closer into, who knows, that's another matter and the investigation in Ferguson could certainly go beyond the shooting itself.  

              An incidentally, the FBI will have access to every piece of evidence that the DA there has, making a "cover up" very problematic.

              So it's not about the "Mozz authorities" pulling a "fast one". It's about whether there's evidence that Wilson acted with racial animus. If there is, Holder can go after him, if there isn't, there's no case.

              Dammit Jim, I'm a lawyer, not a grammarian. So sue me.

              by Pi Li on Tue Aug 19, 2014 at 09:53:37 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  re: "Wikipedia lawyer" (3+ / 0-)

                that was totally uncalled for.

                Also, it takes some real chutzpah to criticize somebody for linking to Wikipedia on an internet forum.

                The American weakness is that we try to rule the world with public relations, then end up believing our own con jobs. We are adrift in a mythical ship which no longer touches land.--Gustav Hansford

                by nota bene on Tue Aug 19, 2014 at 10:46:55 PM PDT

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                •  Re (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Dr Swig Mcjigger
                  re: "Wikipedia lawyer" (0+ / 0-)
                  that was totally uncalled for.
                  Standards of common decency have gone way downhill recently. The nerve of some people, I have to say.

                  (-5.50,-6.67): Left Libertarian
                  Leadership doesn't mean taking a straw poll and then just throwing up your hands. -Jyrinx

                  by Sparhawk on Tue Aug 19, 2014 at 11:33:00 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  It takes " zero nerve " to post (0+ / 0-)

                    in a comment section

                    You want some "decency" ? AG Holder has stepped in to put a stop to the corrupt cops making matters worse for the black community of Ferguson

                    You want "nerve" ? Go listen to some interviews of the parents and kids who can not go to school right now because they have a dysfunctional police dept

                    http://abcn.ws/...

                    ABC This Week

                    8/17/14

                    Martha Raddatz sat down with the #Ferguson Wellspring Church Pastor Willis Johnson and two young St. Louis residents. Here's part of the conversation:

                    Martha Raddatz: Do you behave in a way that will keep you safer? ......( when he sees the police driving by)

                    Alvin Ransom: I feel like in fear, I do. I react out of fear. So I have to tighten up a little bit. I have to -- I have to make sure I'm not sagging, because they look for things like that. We have to put on a show that we are perfect. ( for the police)

                    Martha Raddatz: So if you saw police officers coming at you, what would you do?

                    Alvin Ransom: Hope to God that they don't -- they're not coming to me. I would hope that -- I don't know.

                    The pastor said the same thing , they fear every cop , watch the interview

                    Beer Drinkers & Hell Raisers

                    by Patango on Wed Aug 20, 2014 at 07:54:04 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

              •  Hey (3+ / 0-)

                The condescending comment you made has ruined the value of anything else you wrote.

              •  Conspiracy to violate civil rights (3+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                indie17, aitchdee, Patango

                Given this in the NYT:

                Mr. Holder and top Justice Department officials were weighing whether to open a broader civil rights investigation to look at Ferguson’s police practices at large, according to law enforcement officials who spoke on the condition of anonymity to discuss internal talks. The issue came up after news reports revealed a 2009 case in which a man said that four police officers beat him, then charged him with damaging government property — by getting blood on their uniforms.
                Given the aforementioned 2009 case, given other reports of systematic profiling coupled with suppression of subsequent complaints, and given the behavior of the St Louis County Police since the Brown killing, it seems that conspiracy to violate charges are plausible.  Or would you read this otherwise?

                The most expedient and effective course of action might be for citizens to organize, recall elected officials across the board, and elect a sweeping new regime.  This empowering move, if successful, could end up being replicated in many places across the country.

                •  Perhaps (0+ / 0-)

                  As I said, it's certainly possible that the DOJ will find evidence of wide spread civil rights violations by the Ferguson PD, in which case they could expand the scope of their investigation.

                  But with regards to the shooting specifically, they'd still need some kind of specific racial motive on behalf of Wilson when he shot down to charge Wilson in Federal court.

                  I definitely agree that it's in the best interest of the citizen's of Ferguson to become involved in the democratic process and elect people that they feel represent their best interests.

                  Dammit Jim, I'm a lawyer, not a grammarian. So sue me.

                  by Pi Li on Wed Aug 20, 2014 at 06:54:22 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

              •  "A Wikipedia lawyer." (0+ / 0-)

                The wiki entry is 100% correct , so I should c&p that from a different internet source ? What difference would that have made? It appears you would be offended either way

                Pi Li

                The civil rights prosecutions you mentioned were able to occur because those murders were racially motivated.

                Sorry but cops get busted for conspiracy and corruption all the time , and it does not have to be racially motivated , my post was just an example of The ASAG making a difference  , you are the one who up rated a post saying
                Holder adds nothing to the equation here in terms of the Brown shooting.
                Not me Pi Li , so I have no idea why you think you need to preach all that to me

                And the MS authorities were not thrown in prison for being racist

                charged 18 individuals under 18 U.S.C. §242 and §371 with conspiring to deprive the three of their civil rights (by murder)
                Looks like wiki out smarted you again

                Beer Drinkers & Hell Raisers

                by Patango on Wed Aug 20, 2014 at 07:21:53 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  (sigh) (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Sparhawk, VClib
                  Sorry but cops get busted for conspiracy and corruption all the time
                  Who said anything about "conspiracy and corruption"?  I'm talking about the shooting of Michael Brown. And in any event, yes, cops get charged with conspiracy and corruption all the time. But unless there's some Federal question attached, they'd be prosecuted in State Court.

                  Secondly, I never said the Wiki article was incorrect (though that article actually does have some errors). Your use of it was simply off point.

                  Here's what you said:

                  And the MS authorities were not thrown in prison for being racist
                  First, I never said the "MS authorities were thrown in prison for being racist".  

                  Here is the quote from Wiki you posted supporting what you said:

                  charged 18 individuals under 18 U.S.C. §242 and §371 with conspiring to deprive the three of their civil rights (by murder)
                  Here's the Federal statute, 18 U.S.C. §242, quoted in your Wiki article. Did you read it?  Bold for your benefit:
                  Whoever, under color of any law, statute, ordinance, regulation, or custom, willfully subjects any person in any State, Territory, Commonwealth, Possession, or District to the deprivation of any rights, privileges, or immunities secured or protected by the Constitution or laws of the United States, or to different punishments, pains, or penalties, on account of such person being an alien, or by reason of his color, or race, than are prescribed for the punishment of citizens, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than one year, or both; and if bodily injury results from the acts committed in violation of this section or if such acts include the use, attempted use, or threatened use of a dangerous weapon, explosives, or fire, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than ten years, or both; and if death results from the acts committed in violation of this section or if such acts include kidnapping or an attempt to kidnap, aggravated sexual abuse, or an attempt to commit aggravated sexual abuse, or an attempt to kill, shall be fined under this title, or imprisoned for any term of years or for life, or both, or may be sentenced to death.
                  And as an aside, 18 U.S.C. §241 is more relevant with regards to the Mississippi conspiracy, but I'll leave that alone since were talking about the Wiki passage you quoted.

                  As I said, many times, it's possible that Holder will expand the investigation of the Ferguson PD beyond the shooting if he finds evidence of a wide spread conspiracy to deprive people of their civil rights there, in which case Federal civil rights charges may come into play.

                  But with with regards to THE SHOOTING ITSELF, there must be evidence of a racial motive on Wilson's part to support a Federal civil rights charge.

                  Dammit Jim, I'm a lawyer, not a grammarian. So sue me.

                  by Pi Li on Wed Aug 20, 2014 at 08:24:40 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  "Who said anything about conspiracy & corruption" (0+ / 0-)

                    I did , in my response to Sparhawk , keep up keep up

                    Pi Li

                    Constitution or laws of the United States, or to different punishments, pains, or penalties

                    Sorry Pi Li , they are referring to the punishment phase of a conviction there , they were not thrown in prison for being racist , and that was your failed argument

                    Everyone can see what you said , and what you up rated ....Word salads never help , or rabbit holes , a real judge would have none of that  

                    Pi Li

                    As I said, many times

                     conspiracy to deprive people of their civil rights there, in which case Federal civil rights charges may come into play.

                    No, I was the one who made that point 1st , then you chirped in about it , that is after you up rated Sparhawk saying the exact opposite , keep up keep up

                    YOU argued "racism " must be involved in civil rights violations

                    Pi Li

                     The civil rights prosecutions you mentioned were able to occur because those murders were racially motivated. The same element must be present in the Brown case.

                    It's about whether there's evidence that Wilson acted with racial animus. If there is, Holder can go after him, if there isn't, there's no case.

                    Beer Drinkers & Hell Raisers

                    by Patango on Wed Aug 20, 2014 at 09:17:36 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  No (2+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      Sparhawk, VClib
                      YOU argued "racism " must be involved in civil rights violations
                      No. I never said tha "racism" "must" be involved in civil rights cases. I never even used the word racism. "Racism"  certainly does not have to be present to warrant civil rights charges. Even in cases where racial bias is the issue,  it doesn't necessarily involve "racsim".  That's absurd.   I said that for Wilson to be charged with a Federal Civil rights violation in the SHOOTING Of MICHAEL BROWN there would have to be evidence that he shot Brown out of racial animus. Which is true.

                      As to what others have said on here,  you'll have to take it up with them Sparhawk I'm sure is more than capable of explaining himself.

                      I can see I'm wasting my time here.  Tell you what,  you just make up with whatever it is you think I said, and proceed from there.  I'm done and will leave you with the last word.

                      Dammit Jim, I'm a lawyer, not a grammarian. So sue me.

                      by Pi Li on Wed Aug 20, 2014 at 10:53:54 AM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

          •  Also (4+ / 0-)
            This is not the best article, but the quickest one (18+ / 0-)

            I could get my hands on.  This outlines what the DOJ has been doing in other cities since the passage of the 1994 Violent Crime Act.

            Namely, they have power to sue local law enforcement officials for violations of civil rights.  They can also impose remedies for longstanding violations.

            by suzq on Tue Aug 19, 2014 at 05:40:39 PM CDT

            http://www.stltoday.com/...

            Beer Drinkers & Hell Raisers

            by Patango on Tue Aug 19, 2014 at 09:35:42 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

      •  I'm fairly sure the police (0+ / 0-)

        In the Rodney King beating where brought up and convicted of violating civilians right. By the DOJ.  And the city had to settle a civil case.  Not that it fixed much but if on cop thinks about the consequence of his actions and chooses not to use force that is a victory.

        I do think the patriotic thing to do is to critique my country. How else do you make a country better but by pointing out its flaws? Bill Maher

        by gtghawaii on Tue Aug 19, 2014 at 11:59:31 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

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