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View Diary: Crooks and Liars: Brown appears to have paid for those cigars. (344 comments)

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  •  I think it's time that the witnesses (21+ / 0-)

    shut up. Let the lawyers who are on our side gather the evidence.  We saw it with the Zimmerman case, did us NO GOOD to pre-play the damning evidence.  I'm thinking there are tons of witnesses and the fewer of them who go public in this moment the better for when this case is tried.  We need justice more than we need the convenience store owner and employees to satisfy our curiosity.

    On the other hand... where the FUCK is the incident report??

    If you don't like it, attack the message, not the messenger. The former may convince me that I am wrong, but the latter will always convince that I am right.

    by nancyjones on Tue Aug 19, 2014 at 04:39:01 PM PDT

    [ Parent ]

    •  Via NY Times... (6+ / 0-)

      A mind like a book, has to be open to function properly.

      by falconer520 on Tue Aug 19, 2014 at 04:46:05 PM PDT

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      •  I'd say "fuck you!" (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        kharma

        but I'm a stranger to you so you might take it the wrong way and get all offended.  I do not wish to offend anyone. So instead, I'll simply say that this was not the incident report to which I was referring.

        If you don't like it, attack the message, not the messenger. The former may convince me that I am wrong, but the latter will always convince that I am right.

        by nancyjones on Tue Aug 19, 2014 at 04:52:49 PM PDT

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        •  This was said in all good humor (4+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          BvueDem, elwior, kharma, NoBlueSkies

          Please forgive me if it did not come across that way :)

          If you don't like it, attack the message, not the messenger. The former may convince me that I am wrong, but the latter will always convince that I am right.

          by nancyjones on Tue Aug 19, 2014 at 04:55:10 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  Wow... (8+ / 0-)

          In a diary about the alleged store "robbery" you asked for the incident report...

          We need justice more than we need the convenience store owner and employees to satisfy our curiosity.

          On the other hand... where the FUCK is the incident report??

          I was attempting to be helpful and answer your question.

          A mind like a book, has to be open to function properly.

          by falconer520 on Tue Aug 19, 2014 at 05:02:12 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Am not dissing you (6+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Chi, indie17, FogCityJohn, elwior, kharma, otto

            sorry, my focus is on the injustice of a teenager being murdered and the power structure's attempt to divert everyone's attention from the fact that a teenager was murdered.  Feel that the murder of the teenager is WAY MORE IMPORTANT than whatever happened at the 7-11 that the owner and employees didn't feel was important.

            The incident report I'm interested in is that little incident that involved a teenager being shot 6 times in broad daylight by a uniformed cop.

            If you don't like it, attack the message, not the messenger. The former may convince me that I am wrong, but the latter will always convince that I am right.

            by nancyjones on Tue Aug 19, 2014 at 05:40:45 PM PDT

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            •  and then he died (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              mkor7, kharma, drmah

              on the street, blood and brains scattered everywhere. Meanwhile, the murderer drove off in the car that contained EVIDENCE. But we'll never know the real EVIDENCE, now will we? I almost said "sorry" again but you know what? I'm NOT sorry. I'm pissed, MAJOR LEAGUE pissed, and I'm not gonna shut up, cuz it's true.

              No justice, No peace.

              If you don't like it, attack the message, not the messenger. The former may convince me that I am wrong, but the latter will always convince that I am right.

              by nancyjones on Tue Aug 19, 2014 at 07:57:04 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  Actually, the store event is relevant (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              winkk, BvueDem, peregrinus

              A big part of the Ferguson PD story is that Michael Brown was trying to grab the gun from the officer who subsequently fired the lethal shots. If Brown had stolen goods from the store, the narrative goes that he would have been in a antagonistic mind set owing to fears of being arrested.

              Yes, this narrative does not make much sense under any circumstances but if Mr. Brown had not stolen anything, then his presumed state of mind would not be an issue.

              •  OH MY FUCKING GOD (5+ / 0-)

                An eighteen year old got murdered and people are obsessing on the child's state of mind and NO-FUCKING-BODY is obsessing on the adult cop who murdered the child.  This makes me sick.

                If you don't like it, attack the message, not the messenger. The former may convince me that I am wrong, but the latter will always convince that I am right.

                by nancyjones on Tue Aug 19, 2014 at 09:18:10 PM PDT

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                •  I agree but (4+ / 0-)

                  my point was not obsessing about anything.

                  I was talking about the emerging rationales that the Ferguson PD is likely to use as a means to justify the shooting.

                  It is not a random coincidence that they released the truncated video, floated the term strong armed robbery and statements about Brown attacking and charging the officer.

                  It appears that they want to make a case that Brown was in some "on the run" after the alleged robbery and panicked when approached by the police officer.

                  If there was no robbery, a major component of the official cover story falls apart

                  As we learned in the Trayvon Martin case, the legal rationales matter quite a bit because they frame how juries see the evidence.

                  •  I'm WAY emotional about this at the mo (0+ / 0-)

                    and I'm not sure that's a bad thing. And I want it fixed. And I don't see a path to fixedness being laid. Am not sure there's a cool head in the bunch. The only thing I know for sure is that it is WRONG that our children are being killed by the people we spend our tax dollars pay to ensure our safety.  

                    If you don't like it, attack the message, not the messenger. The former may convince me that I am wrong, but the latter will always convince that I am right.

                    by nancyjones on Tue Aug 19, 2014 at 09:46:01 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                  •  Does it follow that someone in a "panic" would (0+ / 0-)

                    just walk out of the store they just stole something from, then stroll on down the street, in the middle of that street, and then just told the officer he was almost home?  I highly doubt that.  That would take some serious guts, self-control, and confidence   from both of these young men.  Something not too common for anyone let alone these two.  And then, to top if off, they go all aggressive and try to take the cops gun.  

                    All this based on a video tape that doesn't actually show anything.

                    America, where a rising tide lifts all boats! Unless you don't have a boat...uh...then it lifts all who can swim! Er, uh...um...and if you can't swim? SHAME ON YOU!

                    by Back In Blue on Tue Aug 19, 2014 at 11:04:29 PM PDT

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                •  18 year old = adult (0+ / 0-)

                  Regardless of any other factors, Michael Brown wasn't a child.

              •  NO (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                EastcoastChick

                It's not relevant at all. It's completely beside the point.

                The point is that we should be able to rely on police officers to make the more thoughtful choice when it comes deciding when to use force.

                The idea that we can sit here and pretend that this has some bearing on this case is ludicrous.  

                He shot at the kid in the street AS BROWN RAN AWAY. The kid turned around. The officer started shooting again until the gun was empty.  

                If you cannot hire and train competent police officers, then you have no business running a police department.  

                It is far better to let the suspect run than to shoot an unarmed person, regardless of whether the poorly trained police officer feels threatened or not.

                Feeling threatened by criminals is part of the job.  You take a risk.  That  means you may be the one who gets hurt sometimes, but by being able to restrain yourself from using deadly force, you preserve the entire legal system.

                Streichholzschächtelchen

                by otto on Wed Aug 20, 2014 at 08:15:45 AM PDT

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                •  Remember the Trayvon Martin trial (0+ / 0-)

                  Evidence and testimony are never presented in a vacuum.

                  The Ferguson PD are floating a justifying story that is intended to muddy up the eye witness testimony and create doubt that the shooting may have been justified.

                  You may have the case settled in your mind but what  matters in terms of due process happens in the court room proceedings.

                  Saying that the arguments the Ferguson PD will use to justify are irrelevant is letting emotion trump prior knowledge of how police departments have historically rallied to defend officers under suspicion of using undue force. Do a little research and you will see that officers have been cleared off wrong doing when a preponderance would have suggested a very different outcome.

          •  Tks. Was incident report based on call from Afr-Am (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Demeter Rising, gramofsam1

            woman? It's not clear. The description of the incident uses the female pronoun to describe the person who called in to report the theft. In the video above, only one woman is visible, although I assume the store is big enough there could have been other women present. (She enters at 0:30, may have a cell-phone in her right hand, seems to have a small child with her, Brown looks at her closely).

            I can only imagine how horrible she (or whoever called in) feels, if she thinks that in any way she contributed to Michael's death.

            The incident report (p. 6 of 18 in the PDF) states (I've added the witness/clerk, to fill in the gaps):

            [Witness] had just come out of the restroom and returned to the counter where she observed Brown tell [store clerk] that he (Brown) wanted several boxes of cigars. As [clerk] was placing the boxes on the counter, Brown grabbed a box of Swisher Sweet cigars and handed them to Johnson who was standing behind Brown. [Witness] witnessed [clerk] tell Brown that he had to pay for those cigars first. That is when Brown reached across the counter and grabbed numerous packs of Swisher Sweets and turned to leave the store. [Witness] then calls '911'. Meanwhile, [clerk] comes out from behind the counter and attempts to stop Brown from leaving. According to [witness], [clerk] was trying to lock the door until Brown returned the merchandise to him. That is when Brown grabbed [clerk] by the shirt and forcefully pushed him back in to a dispaly rack. [Clerk] backed away and Brown and Johnson exited the store with the cigars.
            Obviously, this in no way diminishes let alone justifies the horrible murder of Mike Brown, that Darren Wilson appears to have committed.

            And it does not diminish the broader contexts of racism, poverty, discrimination, poor public education, unemployment, wealth inequalities, income inequalities, family challenges, police abuse, militarization of police, lack of community control over 'their' police force, etc etc etc. If anything, it highlights them. :-(

    •  There is no justice, no peace (12+ / 0-)

      if people back off and let the case proceed it will end in McCulloch's grand jury which is being convened. From Democracy Now! Over and over young black men are killed across this country because there is no accountability in a police state. That's what this country has become. The gloves are off and the victims of this inhumanity globally and here are now the criminals who are unworthy of living.    

      http://www.democracynow.org/...

      JAMALA ROGERS: Bob McCulloch has a very ugly history in terms of the prosecution of African Americans in the St. Louis County. Some of those cases have also come back to haunt him in terms of wrongful conviction. So there’s no confidence in his ability to bring justice to the family of Mike Brown or to the Ferguson community. And so that’s why the growing voices are getting stronger and stronger in terms of him stepping back and a special prosecutor being appointed.

      The problem with a grand jury is that anybody who has an understanding of how that works knows that most of the time grand juries are an appendage of the prosecutor. So, when he decided to convene a grand jury, that also escalated people’s anger and outrage that justice was not going to be served.  

      No justice, no peace.
    •  Actually (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      travelerxxx, sidnora, drmah

      I think interviewing the witnesses may be very helpful in getting this to trial. It has to go through a grand jury first, and they get all their info from the police. It is apparently not an adversarial trial-like situation. This is simply to determine whether it should go to trial. So, the police are the only game in town in determining whether or not there is a prosecution. Anything that throws their narrative into doubt, such as eyewitnesses who contradict the police account, should be shown far and wide so the members of the grand jury know there is more to it than what the police may present.

      And, I think it may be protective of the witnesses.

      Good thing the Justice Dept and the FBI are there. It might not be so easy for Ferguson police to do this as per the usual.

      "The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness." —John Kenneth Galbraith

      by eyeswideopen on Tue Aug 19, 2014 at 07:23:14 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

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