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View Diary: Hamas Assassinates 11 Palestinian's in Gaza (55 comments)

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  •  Claims and facts (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    rduran, Justanothernyer, aimeehs
    to claims a top Hamas official has admitted that Hamas was responsible for the kidnapping and murder of the three Israeli teens to this claim now that Hamas has executed 3 Gazans for being informants.

    [...]

    Not doubting any of the reports but also not accepting them at face value

    The question is what will make you believe these claims? After all, there is a video of the guy admitting (freely and proudly, may I say, not under duress). This is a senior Hamas official (one of the founders of Hamas' military wing) who ,the host in the video claims, to speak for Khaled Mash'aal and that said Mash'aal has yet to deny it.

    As for the "claims" about executions, here are the photos
    This is an Israeli site, so it is in Hebrew, but the pictures need no caption.
    Same type of pictures you see coming from Iraq.

    Say Mr. Medvedev would claim during a press conference that Russian missiles downed the Malaysian plane and also say that he speaks for Putin, and Putin doesn't confirm it but doesn't bother to deny it either.

    Medvedev status within the hierarchy of the Russian government and the lack of denial from the #1 honcho would be enough for any reasonable man to accept the fact that the Russians are indeed responsible.

    Yet, when it comes to Hamas, it is "claims" and "not face value" because it doesn't fit the preconceived narrative.

    Ask yourself - have you ever doubted the claims by Hamas as to the number of civilians killed in Gaza?

    Queror Ergo Sum. -- Rene Descartes Shakshuka

    by The Revenge of Shakshuka on Fri Aug 22, 2014 at 07:21:22 AM PDT

    [ Parent ]

    •  I would point out your sources are either (0+ / 0-)

      Israeli or MEMRI.  That does not give me confidence in the accuracy of the information.
      http://en.wikipedia.org/...
      http://memriwatch.wordpress.com/
      http://www.factsontheground.co.uk/...

      Do you have any sources which are not traced back to Israeli sources?  After all, to point out a germane comparison, I did not believe NVA claims about American casualties during VN War but neither did I believe Westmoreland's claims.  Instead, I found that I had to sift through various sources in order to find what could probably be the truth which takes work, also much more difficult in 1969 than it is today.  This is all the more reason to demand that our information come from multiple sources, hopefully as neutral as is possible.

      I do not pay any attention to Hamas' claims about casualties but do pay attention to UN estimates or to estimates by international peace organizations.

      •  Memri just shows a video from Al-Jazeera (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        aimeehs

        And their translation, I can attest at least of  the Arabic, is pretty correct.
        Does MEMRI has an agenda? probably - but than again who doesn't?
        However, they don't provide analysis or opinion - just the footage.
        If you claim that they manipulated the video somehow to make him say things he didn't say - now that's a stretch.

        And here is the second part that makes me believe it is true: If this was an  unsubstantiated rumor, a slander -  you don't see Khaled Mashaal denies it.

        As for the YNET news - they just show the pictures. Forget for a moment about the analysis.
        There is no questions that executions took place in Gaza today. Do you accept the Guardian as a legitimate  source?

        Queror Ergo Sum. -- Rene Descartes Shakshuka

        by The Revenge of Shakshuka on Fri Aug 22, 2014 at 11:22:48 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  you seem much more invested in your POV (0+ / 0-)

          than I am.  I would prefer to rely on someone other than MEMRI for translations.  Translating is difficult, particularly when it comes to nuances of languages.  I admit that my training is largely in Indo-European languages which is why I prefer to wait to see analyses from several sources before I draw a conclusion about Arabic translations.

          However, just as a matter of curiosity, how do you suggest Hamas should deal with informers?  After all, it is no secret that the IDF uses informer and the Guardian article notes that some are blackmailed into informing.  Since Gaza lacks prisons to hold long term prisoners, what punishment is available?  

          •  Invested? Puh-leeze (0+ / 0-)

            Honestly I have smelt farts which where heavier and  had more importance than most I/P diaries of either side.
            Most of them devolve into a circle-jerk in a speed that defies basic laws of physics.

            Yet  against my better judgement I will respond.
            I could have given you links to the Guardian or any other newspaper saying that Al-Arouri made that statement.
            Note for example tht I didn't bring any links to nespapers where the Israeli government claimed to capture one of the conspirators and got a confession.

            I chose to bring a video. Why? because it is harder to manipulate a video than to put a news item in a newspaper. They quote two or three original sources at most. It is straight from the horse mouth  and I know the language.

            You just have a problem with MEMRI agenda. Fine, no issue there, but I'm sure that you will not discount  a video on the Maddow's show quoting RWNJs just because she has an agenda that you happen to agree with.

            You will never question whether some Republican said the things he said on a video just because it was Jon Stewart who brought it to your attention.

            People tend to believe things they want to believe and that aligned with their preconceived notions. It has been like this since we crawled out of the primordial goo, only now wit the internets it is so easy to actually find these echo chambers.

            Now to your question how should Hamas deal with collaborators? At least they should elevate themselves to the standards of Stalin, Kim-Il-Sun, Pol Pot, Saddam Hussein and Mao and have some show trial where everybody knows the verdict in advanced but at least there is the charade of a procedure. No long-term problem there.

            Right now nobody knows if they were real collaborators,  members of Fatah or just someone who pissed off some Hamas official.

            And as to prisons? Come on, this so weak of an excuse. We are talking about 20 people - not  whole neighborhoods.
            Put them in the same bunkers that Hamas leadership is hiding in.
            Heck, they could have put them next to a rockets launch site and wait for the Israelis to do  the job. Claim them as Shahids and be done with it.

            Queror Ergo Sum. -- Rene Descartes Shakshuka

            by The Revenge of Shakshuka on Fri Aug 22, 2014 at 07:12:17 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  I note collaborators were routinely (0+ / 0-)

              executed during WWII.  I only use WWII because it is the most richly documented.  Question is now if we, as a society have a double standard (I think I already know the answer) or if the various resistance groups in the occupied countries were guilty of human rights violations (I am limiting it to Europe simply because of the ready availability of resources)

              •  But this is not the french resistance, is it? (0+ / 0-)

                The french resistance couldn't just freely walk around the streets brandishing weapons and have their own uniformed security forces....

                Hamas is trying to play the role of a sovereign entity in the Gaza strip. They run the government ministries, social services etc. It runs a financial system with employees and salaries and what not.
                I don't think the resistance groups in Europe could say that.

                If you want a comparison, why don't you compare it to the way the Jewish resistance organizations dealt with collaborators during the time of the British mandate - It was super extremely rare.

                Queror Ergo Sum. -- Rene Descartes Shakshuka

                by The Revenge of Shakshuka on Sat Aug 23, 2014 at 03:51:37 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  I guess you have not read about the Maquis (0+ / 0-)

                  "shadow government" or those of any number of resistances.  The Communist Chinese were quite effective at this both during and after the War.  I would encourage you to research it as it is quite fascinating.

                  I am trying not to bring up the Jewish Resistance since they were considered terrorists by the British during the Mandate and it really gets to be an argument over semantics.
                  http://en.wikipedia.org/...
                  http://en.wikipedia.org/...
                  http://www.cjpmo.org/...
                  http://guardian.150m.com/...

                  I believe further research into some of the more successful resistances in Europe might lead to a reconsideration of your view of their success

                  •  This is becoming ridiculous (0+ / 0-)

                    This is becoming ridiculous. I thought this discussion was about how resistanceterror groups dealt with collaborators, not whether this group or that group were violent.
                    And in this case, the Hamas has control over a territory with all the trappings of an independent government (at war - yes, under siege - yes). They have the means and the opportunity to put people on trials, publish their names, prove to their OWN constituency that these people deserved to die.

                    Let's say, for the sake of argument, that I grant you the point that the Jewish resistance groups were terrorist organizations - how they dealt with collaborators (and this was your original question) was markedly different. Not that there were none, mid you, but the number of executions over a period of 30 years was in the single digits.

                     

                    Queror Ergo Sum. -- Rene Descartes Shakshuka

                    by The Revenge of Shakshuka on Sun Aug 24, 2014 at 06:11:39 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  I suppose this example will not suffice (0+ / 0-)

                      referring to Irgun:
                       "and the March 1947 "execution" of a Jew accused of collaboration with the British"

                      http://prospect.org/...

                      However I have little hope this will satisfy you either.  Stuff happens during conflict and has in every conflict.  Do you think My Lai was the only atrocity committed by US forces in VN?  Talk to any vet who was in deep sh*t and he will tell you stuff happens.

                      Now I would appreciate any links you have pointing to the treatment of collaborators by those Jewish groups which would detail what they did do with the collaborators.  As I said, I really did not want to go to this place but since we are there, we may as well play the full set

                      •  What part of "single digits"don't you get? (0+ / 0-)

                        "and the March 1947 "execution" of a Jew accused of collaboration with the British"

                        I never claimed that there were none.

                        Also you can bring up the case of Tobiansky (albeit that was right after the establishment of the state). There was a very quick kangaroo court which after Tobiansky was executed.
                        The person responsible for this was found guilty of manslaughter. his sentence was one day in prison and the newspapers at the time savaged the Israeli leadership for it (especially noted was Alterman's poem "The traitor's widow"). The Tobiansky case still resonates in Israel 66 later specifically because it was so rare.

                        Also, more telling is the reaction of the people to these cases. Just today Abu-Marzuk claimed it was a "pressure from the people" that demanded the summary execution of these collaborators.

                        Queror Ergo Sum. -- Rene Descartes Shakshuka

                        by The Revenge of Shakshuka on Sun Aug 24, 2014 at 10:39:25 AM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  please, don't move the goal posts (0+ / 0-)

                          I told you it would not suffice and it did not.
                          It appears we must agree to disagree as even if I did post other examples, you would continue to find reasons to reject those examples

                          •  Moving the goal posts - LOL.... (0+ / 0-)

                            If there is a thread that shows the futility of this whole I?P diaries, this one should be prime example.

                            Agree to disagree... what a joke. It seems that we cannot even agree what the fucking question is.

                            Oh.. and I didn't say

                            we may as well play the full set
                            So let's recap, shall we?
                            1.
                            The discussion started with you "doubting claims that Hamas kidnapped the three teen" (or at least not taking at face value). Also you raised doubts about the claims of executions by Hamas (I assume you agree now that these executions DID take place)

                            2.
                            I gave yo a link to MEMRI video which is in itself a recording of Al-Jazeera feed. MEMRI does not provide any analysis - just the video and translation (that I can attest  is accurate).

                            3. You claimed that MEMRI is not a reliable source, since it has an agenda and gave me some links, one of them has been dead for the last 4 years and was more interested in the fine points of whether this word or that word was translated correctly (BTW, with the wide range of Arab dialects it is conceivable that one word will be mistranslated, but the whole gist of the thing cannot). And anyway I pointed yo to secondary sources as the Guardian.

                            4. You changed the subject by "curiously asking"

                            how do you suggest Hamas should deal with informers?
                            5. I then answered that they should have been tried (even at some pathetic show trial and have their names published).

                            6. you came up with the attitude of executing collaborators during WWII and (I think) claimed that we apply double standards to European resistance movements during WWII and to Hamas.

                            7. I pointed out that these resistance groups did not the freedom of movement and action Hamas has, and anyway the Jewish resistance during the British mandate did not execute collaborators on a regular basis - it was extremely rare.

                            8.
                            You countered with links to the violence employed by the Jewish militants during their fight  for independence- BUT NONE HAD TO DO ANYTHING WITH HOW THEY TREATED COLLABORATORS.

                            This is where the goal posts "shifted" - a classic straw-man. Nobody claimed that the Jewish militant groups  were Gandhi-like organizations - however the discussion until now was limited to how these groups were dealing with collaborators.
                            (Heck,  we'll call them terrorists, if that what makes you happy. George Washington was called a terrorist and now he is a founding father. Selvarasa Pathmanathan was called a terrorists and is still called that - the difference is that Washington won)

                            9. You countered with a link with states that there was a Jew that was executed by Etzel. A single Jew - which kind of proves my point that this occurrence of executing collaborators was very rare.
                            However the rest of the link was about, again, the general violence employed by the Jewish underground and mentioned Altalena - which has nothing to do with executing collaborators.
                            You then brought up Mai Lai, why - I have no clue as  that case has nothing to do with collaborators.

                            10. I responded with giving you a second link of another case of execution of a collaborator, and how the Israeli society dealt with the aftermath.

                            11. You claimed that I shift the goal posts and took your marbles home.

                            So thank you for playing the full set, and I wish you good luck in your future endeavors. You can at least find solace in the fact that every single electron that buzzed  through the intewebs during this thread contributed indirectly to the Israeli economy.

                            Queror Ergo Sum. -- Rene Descartes Shakshuka

                            by The Revenge of Shakshuka on Mon Aug 25, 2014 at 07:32:22 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  have a nice day (0+ / 0-)

                            It has been a pleasure

      •  And as to the UN estimates or NGO's cerdibility (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        aimeehs

        These are organizations that for example blamed Israel for a massacre in Jenin (Amnesty) claiming:

        I must say that the evidence before us at the moment doesn't lead us to believe that the allegations are anything other than truthful and that therefore there are large numbers of civilian dead underneath these bulldozed and bombed ruins that we see."
        Oh well, if you recall, later investigations, by the same bodies concluded this was a false accusation.

        Happens, you know, fog of war and all that.

        Also one must remember that these NGO members and journalists on the ground are under the thumb of Hamas, which is not known for its liberal respect for freedom of the press.

        Queror Ergo Sum. -- Rene Descartes Shakshuka

        by The Revenge of Shakshuka on Fri Aug 22, 2014 at 11:47:38 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Here is another example: (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        aimeehs

        From an article in the new statesman:

        Ten-year-old Mohammed Badran. He was blinded in an Israeli air strike but at the hospital he seemed unaware that his entire family had been killed when a missile destroyed their home at the Nuseirat refugee camp*.
        however, on August 12, the author offered a correction:
        Update, 12 August: Mohammed Badran’s family turned out not to have been killed in the strike on his home, as had been reported here. In the confusion of a packed Shifa Hospital, the doctors treating him in the burns unit thought he had lost his parents and all his siblings.

        Queror Ergo Sum. -- Rene Descartes Shakshuka

        by The Revenge of Shakshuka on Fri Aug 22, 2014 at 12:02:35 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

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