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View Diary: Michael Brown Was Not Killed Because He Was Poor. (81 comments)

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  •  I didn't mean to imply you did at all (10+ / 0-)

    And I am not interested in talking to middle class people about class, for the most part. They're part of the problem.

    About the only time that middle class people want to talk about it is when they want to avoid talking about race.
    Middle Class white people. Most middle class people of color I've met avoid talking about class. Or I suppose most upper middle class people. The difference between middle class and working class is pretty thin. But I agree completely. It's like the person who points to training alone when incidents like this happen and ignore all the other factors.

    The middle class white people that do talk about class when it's not a distraction are rare, and mostly are incredibly patronizing and paternalistic about it. Like things about poor white people clinging to their guns and religion, etc. Which went over very well with a whole lot of middle class white folks I know.

    From what I've seen in both cases of class and race the people who "pull the race card" or "pull the class card" generally aren't people who aren't actually in the group affected. And by those phrases I mean when people cry aloud about classism or racism when it's changing the subject instead of discussing the topic at hand, not the right wing bullshit meaning.

    The middle class in the US is scared to death about a real discussion on class because it would require a massive change in how they see the police. The police are as brutally classist as they are racist, tot he extent that the two are separable. Who is it that evicts the poor when they can no longer pay for their home? Who is it that rouses or attacks the homeless for illegally doing whatever it is they may be doing? The cops.

    Most all poor people I've met know this, at least in a general sense. The same is true of people who are the target of racism. They know the cops are the enforcer of a racist system.

    My preferred pronoun is 'They', what's yours?

    by AoT on Sat Aug 23, 2014 at 10:47:05 AM PDT

    [ Parent ]

    •  I grew up in the Jim Crow south (16+ / 0-)

      which was a society as rigid about class as it was about race. The white oligarchs who called the shots had a very systematic approach to using race to divide poor whites and poor blacks and set them against each other. It was the poor whites who manned the KKK while the middle class whites joined the white citizens council and sipped their mint julips on the veranda. We are still very much living with the effects of that legacy.

       

    •  Right... Race and property (9+ / 0-)

      were completely intertwined back in the slavery days. Cops enforced slavery laws because slaves were property.

      That's how police were originated in the US, which became the modern police we know today.

      I think you're right that both must be discussed.

      And... I think it is offensive when people dismiss racism, and claim that if classism were not a factor, racism would not exist.

      When black toddlers favor whiter skinned dolls... this shows how far racism has penetrated into the national collective subconsciousness.

      Heartbreaking.

      As to classism, what I've seen is many people who denounce classism on dkos still support capitalism as a system, which makes no sense to me at all. The entire idea of classism comes from the split between the owning class, and the working class. One can't have slavery without an owning class. One can't have classism without an owning class.

      But even if much of racism originated, to a degree, with classism, the present reality is racism is also separate issue in itself.

      "Liberty without socialism is privilege, injustice; socialism without liberty is slavery and brutality." - Michael Bakunin (Economic Left/Right: -10.00 Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -9.79)

      by ZhenRen on Sat Aug 23, 2014 at 11:00:34 AM PDT

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      •  From the linked article: (7+ / 0-)
        For example, New England settlers appointed Indian Constables to police Native Americans (National Constable Association, 1995), the St. Louis police were founded to protect residents from Native Americans in that frontier city, and many southern police departments began as slave patrols.
        These police departments which exist today, with all the ingrained racism, trace back to completely racist beginnings (and classist as well).

        "Liberty without socialism is privilege, injustice; socialism without liberty is slavery and brutality." - Michael Bakunin (Economic Left/Right: -10.00 Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -9.79)

        by ZhenRen on Sat Aug 23, 2014 at 11:04:03 AM PDT

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      •  Not sure what you'd replace capitalism with (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        koNko, goodpractice, BelgianBastard

        Socialism is not the opposite of capitalism, communism and socialism is.  

        I'm not a supporter of communism because I don't think it has been shown to allow for diversity of opinion.  Communist societies jail dissenters, religious groups, and "deviants" such as homosexuals.  It may not be inevitable but the track record for tolerance in communist countries is a big fat zero.

        I do not want an economic system where the government controls all economic activity.  That's just trading corporate overlords with bureaucratic overlords.

        Nor do I believe that the capitalistic system is broken-- capitalism works just fine.  Rather, capitalism has broken government.  

        Yes, it's cheesy to say, but I agree that capitalism is the engine that powers the economy. It's just that government is the steering wheel, and the brakes.

        The real risk is not capitalism, it's feudalism.  

        Capitalism says that money controls economic power, but that's not even true anymore. Sure, you can look at the very rich and see that they control everything, but look at the lower levels.  A person who is convicted or even charged with a crime does not have the same economic opportunities as someone who has not.  Employers will not hire them, landlords will not rent to them.  

        On the other end of the spectrum, the business owners, the "job creators" control their employees' lives entirely.  These corporations have such tremendous inertia that they are not succeeding based on economic reasons but on the fact that they control governments.    As an example consider the massive subsidies that go to established farmers to continue to farm; the power plants whose pollution is "grandfathered" to allow continued pollutions; or any other business whose operation is allowed to continue even though new businesses are required to comply with new regulation. Finally, consider the inheritance laws.  I learned in law school that the common has never recognized the right to inherit.  It is only through laws that we create which allows individuals to pass their assets on to their heirs.  

        Say goodbye to capitalism people, feudalism is just around the corner.

        One man gathers what another man spills

        by John Chapman on Sat Aug 23, 2014 at 11:47:36 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  There are different forms (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          koNko, LeftOverAmerica

          of socialism and communism. You're referring to statist, authoritarian forms.

          "Liberty without socialism is privilege, injustice; socialism without liberty is slavery and brutality." - Michael Bakunin (Economic Left/Right: -10.00 Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -9.79)

          by ZhenRen on Sat Aug 23, 2014 at 11:54:49 AM PDT

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        •  I think Feudalism might be preferable (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Richard Lyon, ZhenRen

          to corporate totalitarianism. At least under feudalism the people with power have an obligation to others, even if theoretical.

          My preferred pronoun is 'They', what's yours?

          by AoT on Sat Aug 23, 2014 at 12:10:47 PM PDT

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          •  The corporate totalitarianism (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            AoT, ZhenRen

            will be administered by robots. There won't be anything personal about it.

          •  We would be so lucky to get feudalism. (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Byrnt

            At least in feudal societies the lord maintains some kind of connection to his lands and his people. Can't have a kick ass barony if your people are keeling over and can't feed themselves or can't field an army.

            You need good resources on your land in a feudal set up. Good strong people.

            But in colonialism, you just rape and pillage and nobody gives a shit. I believe that our future, if unchecked, leads straight towards corporate colonialism.

            Democracy - 1 person 1 vote. Free Markets - More dollars more power.

            by k9disc on Sat Aug 23, 2014 at 01:23:57 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

        •  Capitalism jails the poor. (0+ / 0-)

          And the future won't be feudal, it will be colonial.

          There will be a few feudal baronies, but the rest will be extract, exploit, and extort by force, colonialism.

          Democracy - 1 person 1 vote. Free Markets - More dollars more power.

          by k9disc on Sat Aug 23, 2014 at 01:21:38 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

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