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View Diary: 'An Islamic caliphate armed with US weapons' (161 comments)

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  •  well, we pretty much saw the same thing with (4+ / 0-)

    the fall of South Viet Nam.  While the NVA was already pretty well supplied from Soviet and Chinese sources, the windfall the loot that the US left behind was a plus, enabling VN to reestablish a historical regional hegemony and even leading to Chinese/Vietnamese border disputes.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/...

    •  Wrong (0+ / 0-)

      Once the NVA took over South Viet Nam, the domino theory was that it would then take over Thailand, Burma, Malaysia, Indonesia....

      It sort of took over Laos (which it has mostly controlled anyway) and it did invade Cambodia to kick out the Khmer Rouge. But its disinterest in Thailand or any other country proved the domino theorists wrong.

    •  Wrong (0+ / 0-)

      The "Chinese/Vietnamese border disputes" that followed the US surrendering and leaving Vietnam weren't caused by the US leaving its weapons behind. They were caused by China invading Vietnam after the US wasn't around to compete for control of the country. Vietnam won that war, too (a trifecta: France, US, China), keeping its territory and protecting its borders - and freeing itself from the clutches of China that had formed as support against the US invasion.

      Also wrong: "Vietnam to reestablish a historical regional hegemony". Vietnam's regional role beyond its borders was merely to invade Cambodia after the Khmer Rouge converted it into a hellscape. The KR genocided a million Cambodians and targeted the rest of the region for an actual Cambodian hegemony. Vietnam stopped that, and along with it much of the CIA's opium farms.

      Where did you get that version of Vietnam's post-victory history? Nixon's diary?

      "When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro." - HST

      by DocGonzo on Mon Aug 25, 2014 at 11:07:49 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I did not intend to imply that the war was (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        DocGonzo, JVolvo

        caused solely by the US bugout but that the sudden upgrade the VN enjoyed enabled them to at least a stalemate with China.  After all China was a reluctant VN ally during the war since Ho enjoyed Soviet support.
        http://www.washingtonpost.com/...
        The US withdrawal ended the necessity of such an alliance and enabled the NVA to become a more muscular force.

        I think VN economically has established itself as a leader in the region:
        http://www.foreignaffairs.com/...
        and is one of the leading economies, along with a competent military renders them a neighbor with a lot of clout among the other parts of French Indochina

        •  What You Said (0+ / 0-)
          the windfall the loot that the US left behind was a plus, enabling VN to reestablish a historical regional hegemony and even leading to Chinese/Vietnamese border disputes.

          You said the US loot led to Chinese/Vietnamese border disputes. It did not. The loot did help Vietnam defend itself from the Chinese invasion that followed US bugout. There is no reason to believe the Vietnamese wouldn't have been as successful without the US materiel, but taken longer - just as it had taken 15x as long to rid itself of the US invader without any arms but Soviet.

          But what caused the war - not a "border dispute" - was China invading Vietnam following Vietnam's invasion of Cambodia, which followed the US bugout. Vietnam invaded Cambodia, ended the Khmer Rouge holocaust. A decade later Vietnam finished its occupation and "nation building" and left Cambodia, without changing the border.

          The idea that Vietnam used US weapons and its army to create a "regional hegemony" is Henry Kissinger's and China's propaganda. Vietnam established no regional power through its military, except to rid Cambodia of the Chinese-allied KR and then leave. The accurate description is that Vietnam established national sovereignties and international order among the region's countries allied with either China, the Soviet Union or the US.

          Yes, Vietnam used US weapons to do so, but you make it sound like Vietnam got US weapons and expanded its political control for reasons other than defeating the threat to Vietnam and humanity from first a KR Cambodia and then an opportunistic China. Again, it sounds like Kissinger's "domino theory".

          Your version of history is consistent with what looks like the Islamic State in Iraq's actual plotted course, which is how you invoked it. But the actual history, and history since Vietnam's withdrawal from Cambodia, show it's quite different.

          "When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro." - HST

          by DocGonzo on Mon Aug 25, 2014 at 12:46:05 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  Beware! Old school Domino Theory adherents (0+ / 0-)

          are afoot!

          "If you're in a coalition and you're comfortable, you know it's not a broad enough coalition /= GTFO" Dr. Bernice Johnson Reagon + JVolvo

          by JVolvo on Tue Aug 26, 2014 at 07:38:09 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  not hardly; however it appears at the (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            JVolvo

            current moment in history that the domino theory may well apply to the ME as it descends into chaos.  I note the most recent is Egyptian planes bombing jihadist positions in Libya without telling the US that they were doing so (matter of fact they denied it)

            OTOH the domino theory was also dominant in US policy in Europe following WWII as there was concern that Communism would continue to spread  

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