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View Diary: 'An Islamic caliphate armed with US weapons' (161 comments)

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  •  Caliphate is a hoax (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    AoT, native, Kickemout

    In order for their  too be a Caliphate ,their would have to be a sucession of a religious  leader ,with the power to control all Muslim with a fawah  , Mohammad   successor was name Khilafa ,that  is where the world Caliphate come from,thier is no  Islamic leader that have total control of all  Muslim ,like the Pope control the Catholic faithful

    •  of course (5+ / 0-)

      but that's their claim. lots of people have tried to make such a claim.

      The cold passion for truth hunts in no pack. -Robinson Jeffers

      by Laurence Lewis on Mon Aug 25, 2014 at 09:33:40 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Most recently the Ottoman Turks (0+ / 0-)

        who actually did control a substantial part of the Muslim world.

        •  The Ottoman Caliphate (0+ / 0-)

          wasn't so bad, considering modern developments. I'd vote for them.

          … the NSA takes significant care to prevent any abuses and that there is a substantial oversight system in place,” Sen. Dianne Feinstein (D-California), said August 23.

          by mosesfreeman on Mon Aug 25, 2014 at 01:16:37 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Sigh, yes. (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            native

            I've often thought to myself that dismembering the Ottoman state may have been the greatest of all the many postwar blunders made by the victors of WWI.

            "[T]he preservation of the means of knowledge among the lowest ranks is of more importance to the public than all the property of all the rich men in the country." - John Adams, A Dissertation on the Canon and the Feudal Law. (1765)

            by AnacharsisClootz on Sat Aug 30, 2014 at 05:53:45 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

    •  I'm betting they can find someone to fit (0+ / 0-)

      that bill if they capture the territory. That sort of "historical" research is not hard to do.

      My preferred pronoun is 'They', what's yours?

      by AoT on Mon Aug 25, 2014 at 09:38:39 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  The largest Muslim organizations in the world (0+ / 0-)

        are both in Indonesia, with literally tens of millions of members each. Here is one:

        http://www.muhammadiyah.or.id/...

        Here is the other (sorry, no English site):

        http://www.nu.or.id/

        Muhammadiyah is more reformist, Nahdlatul Ulama more traditional, but they are both quite moderate. Completely the opposite of ISIS and Hamas. Unfortunately neither has the money to propagate its teachings widely outside of Indonesia, while the crazies have plenty of oil money. Islam would be well off if one of the leaders of either of these groups would become accepted as caliph, but that isn't going to happen.

        •  Well, lets be honest here (0+ / 0-)

          The whole region was far better off under previous Muslim empires than it is now under the post-colonial world order. A new Khalifa would mean a huge change for the positive for a great many people in the region.

          Of course, that's not going to happen.

          But ISIS will find some dude somewhere that has family documents that prove his connection to the prophet. And he'll be a great figurehead. It's the beauty of monarchy.

          My preferred pronoun is 'They', what's yours?

          by AoT on Mon Aug 25, 2014 at 12:23:03 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  The real problem (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          marsanges, charliehall2, JVolvo

          is that KSA largely controls Islamic education. The ones least qualified, no less. It's so bad, that years ago, you would find Saudi nationals floating through US mosques to make sure that the hand-out material all passed muster.

          Most Muslims are not Wahhabi, yet it is they who push this crappy interpretation.

          … the NSA takes significant care to prevent any abuses and that there is a substantial oversight system in place,” Sen. Dianne Feinstein (D-California), said August 23.

          by mosesfreeman on Mon Aug 25, 2014 at 01:20:33 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  why is this unchallenged? (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            mosesfreeman

            Islam had ans has centers of learning and local traditions that have all their own traditions back into the ages, they dont need wahhabism (whatever it really is) to learn. How come the local variations of islam do not offer more resistance to this cultural imperialism from Saudi Arabia? How can a saudi cult interpretation push out all the time honored traditions in say the Haussa states in Nigeria, so that - later - an abomination like Boko Haram arises? I mean this as - how can the locals allow that? Have they no self respect? They are the ones who should teach civilization to the Saudis.

            I have to admit though, I watch with the same exasperation whats going on with evangelical cults, like e g in Brazil. One can criticize catholicism all day long for its faults, but still, what brings them by the millions and millions to suddenly turn to the most shallow, most intellect-insulting, most culturally regressive evangelical TV mass hypnosis cults they can import from the US?

            I understand neither. And I would like to know why this is so. Is it really just a function of money? Are the cultural identities of people, whether it is islamic Haussa or brazilians or anyone for that matter, just buyable?

            •  Money is only part of the equation (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              charliehall2, marsanges

              They are also very aggressive. They wrest control of local masjids through intimidation, manipulation, cajolery, etc. The average immigrant from Syria, Egypt, Senegal, or wherever won't stand up to them. They present as the arbiters of Islam.

              There is a local one that is Albanian. They welcome everyone, but prohibit non-Albanians from official membership, exactly for this reason, they don't want their mosque stolen away by Wahhabis.

              This has been going on for decades. I can't find it, but there was a cartoon floating around about fifteen years ago that characterized this phenomenon. A bunch of Sufis gathered to raise funds and build a mosque, yet soon after it was completed, a group of Salafis took over, through intimidation and brow-beating.

              … the NSA takes significant care to prevent any abuses and that there is a substantial oversight system in place,” Sen. Dianne Feinstein (D-California), said August 23.

              by mosesfreeman on Mon Aug 25, 2014 at 04:19:54 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  KSA, Egypt, and Indonesia (0+ / 0-)

                appear to be the places with the largest number of scholars so they can intimidate with their knowledge -- except that Indonesia doesn't send people outside the country much.

                Any rich folks want to do some good deeds by helping Muhammadiyah and Nahdlatul Ulama build schools in the rest of the Muslim world -- or in Europe and America?

    •  No Christian Caliph, Either (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Kickemout

      Popes don't control all Catholics - there is no Catholic fatwa. Catholics are a minority of all Christians, just as Sunnis and Shiites each are a minority of all Muslims.

      There is no leader of any major religion who has fatwa-like power over all followers of the religion among all its sects. Which is yet another demonstration of the fraud that is religion, with its "universal" prescriptions and representations of "omnipotence" that fail even as soon as the next fraudster running a competing franchise with slightly different flavor of the same "god".

      "When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro." - HST

      by DocGonzo on Mon Aug 25, 2014 at 11:11:34 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Mohammad's succesor (0+ / 0-)

      was Abu Bakr. He was a Caliph, as were many others to follow. A Caliph should unify and represent the Muslim community as a whole. I think that (almost) everyone recognizes that ISIS doesn't fill this bill, and can't, but your comment isn't helpful.

      … the NSA takes significant care to prevent any abuses and that there is a substantial oversight system in place,” Sen. Dianne Feinstein (D-California), said August 23.

      by mosesfreeman on Mon Aug 25, 2014 at 01:15:20 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

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