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View Diary: Russia Is Invading Ukraine (544 comments)

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    •  Such is the power of propaganda (12+ / 0-)

      Throughout history, most people are blind to aggression by their own state. These acts are couched in what is "good". Our side fights for "good", what's wrong with that? NATO keeps the peace, afterall. Never mind that as NATO encroaches further east, its expansion obviously threatens the balance there.

      Why was the US threatened by missiles in Cuba? Why would Putin be threatened by NATO membership expanding?

      Yikes! What worries me is that people in the corridors of power frequently seem to not grasp the basics.

      … the NSA takes significant care to prevent any abuses and that there is a substantial oversight system in place,” Sen. Dianne Feinstein (D-California), said August 23.

      by mosesfreeman on Thu Aug 28, 2014 at 11:17:39 AM PDT

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      •  True, too true (8+ / 0-)

        I'm naively sometimes surprised to see so much propaganda here,. The American exceptionalism is sometimes too much to stomach.

      •  The US was threatened by missiles in Cuba (6+ / 0-)

        Because of the possibility that the USSR would direct Castro to fire them at Miami.  That this never happened is because Khrushchev blinked and Kennedy didn't, as any schoolchild knows.  

        And sorry, old sport, but this is nothing at all like former Soviet bloc countries ASKING to join NATO.  Good God in heaven.

        This isn't freedom. This is fear - Captain America

        by Ellid on Thu Aug 28, 2014 at 12:07:06 PM PDT

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        •  Cuba asked to be in alliance with Russia (7+ / 0-)

          How is that any more aggressive than NATO expanding? Cuba had an extremely reasonable fear of the US. Very reasonable.

          And yet that's aggression and this isn't. Convenient how that works.

          My preferred pronoun is 'They', what's yours?

          by AoT on Thu Aug 28, 2014 at 12:50:36 PM PDT

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          •  If we start sending missiles to an allied Ukraine (2+ / 0-)

            the comparison will be apt.

            A Russian-Cuban alliance would not deserve a US invasion of Cuba, don't you agree?

            •  It got one n/t (0+ / 0-)

              … the NSA takes significant care to prevent any abuses and that there is a substantial oversight system in place,” Sen. Dianne Feinstein (D-California), said August 23.

              by mosesfreeman on Thu Aug 28, 2014 at 04:49:36 PM PDT

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              •  One that it deserved? n/t (0+ / 0-)
                •  Moral arguments are useless in FP (0+ / 0-)

                  The idea is that the invasion was a predictable response.

                  … the NSA takes significant care to prevent any abuses and that there is a substantial oversight system in place,” Sen. Dianne Feinstein (D-California), said August 23.

                  by mosesfreeman on Thu Aug 28, 2014 at 06:00:58 PM PDT

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                  •  I take issue with this idea of predictability. (0+ / 0-)

                    Especially because it decouples responsibility from those who actually make the decisions.

                    No, the Bay of Pigs was not a 'predictable response' anymore than the Iraq invasion or the invasion of Grenada.

                    People in power made bad decisions, and orchestrated these events. Jimmy Carter didn't invade Grenada, and wouldn't have if he were still president at the time. Similarly, I seriously doubt that Gore would have manufactured the evidence to invade Iraq.

                    If by 'predictable' you mean power hungry imperialists often look for excuses to invade, then sure. But then, the so-called provocation is just that, an excuse, not an actual cause.

            •  ...to a Ukranian leadership that WANTS to nuke 'em (0+ / 0-)

              see my comment a few lines below

              "See? I'm not a racist! I have a black friend!"

              by TheHalfrican on Fri Aug 29, 2014 at 03:13:22 AM PDT

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        •  Of course it is (0+ / 0-)

          We are asking Putin to blink.

          In all likelihood, he won't do it.

          … the NSA takes significant care to prevent any abuses and that there is a substantial oversight system in place,” Sen. Dianne Feinstein (D-California), said August 23.

          by mosesfreeman on Thu Aug 28, 2014 at 12:54:30 PM PDT

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        •  I know it's history, (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          native

          But it's American History, and not ancient, but even that's not taught anymore is it?

          According to released National Archive documents and released Soviet documents,

          The "Cuban Missile crisis" started when the US secretly based US nuclear missiles in Turkey, to enable a first strike option,

          The next trigger, was when the US started deploying naval, air and army assets to the southern east coast of the US, and was believed to be staging for an invasion of Cuba.

          At that point in time The Soviet Union and Cuba agreed to base nuclear missiles in Cuba and upgrade Cuban Air defences.

          The end result was that Kennedy blinked. While Cuba and the Soviet Union publicly removed the missiles, (and secretly removed the warheads),

          The US secretly ( from the US public) , removed the secret nuclear missiles from Turkey.

          BTW, recent Cuban and Russian post Soviet disclosures have noted that there were both missiles and warheads staged for launch in Cuba, and that the Cubans had the keys,....

          So, we were one JCOS away from nuclear Armageddon.

        •  iirc Che & Castro WANTED to fire the missiles (0+ / 0-)

          Castro apparently backed off when he was kindly informed what the Fallout would do to Cuba. He didn't want to see his people perish.

          Che is famously on the record about how the Cuban people should have thrown themselves on a nuclear funeral pyre for the sake of destroying America & "Capitalism".

          Thank God the Soviets kept a leash on those nukes. (although giving the local commanders authorization to launch tactical nukes upon invasion was....yeah. Ike was a f'n moron for flippantly advising JFK that a Cuban invasion wouldn't be such a big deal)

          BTW this wasn't the 1980s.....we had far, FAR more & better nukes than they did at this point. 27,000 warheads to their 3,000! And Russian long range ICBMs able to reach America were relatively few. (short to medium range is another story, tough break Europe...)

          So while tens of millions of Americans would die.....Russia would be looking at 99%+ death rate and Curtis Lemay essentially carpet-nuking radioactive rubble. This is why the crisis truly sealed Khrushchev's fate - it wasn't just that he gambled and lost Soviet prestige - he gambled and almost brought DEATH INCARNATE to a nation who's aggressive foreign policy was almost entirely based around the idea of preventing another devastating world war on their soil.

          "See? I'm not a racist! I have a black friend!"

          by TheHalfrican on Fri Aug 29, 2014 at 03:12:09 AM PDT

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      •  Oh puh-lease..... (0+ / 0-)

        This is not either-or, zero-sum. Anyone who truly believes Putin would be some peacenik if it wasn't for NATO expanding is a f'n fool. I say this as someone who was opposing NATO's expansion a decade ago.

        I hate how people seem to never want to consider the possibility of two things being true at once. Dogma, dogma, dogma, inflexible thinking.

        "See? I'm not a racist! I have a black friend!"

        by TheHalfrican on Fri Aug 29, 2014 at 02:51:44 AM PDT

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