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View Diary: St. Paul police violently arrest a black man for sitting on bench, waiting for his children (VIDEO) (634 comments)

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  •  Yes, I saw this before work this morning... (213+ / 0-)

    it exploded an anger in me I haven't had in so many years.  This is not a free nation.  When you have to justify everything you do to a freaking nosy cop or risk being tasered or worse, we are a police state.

    He who denies it is a tyrant; he who does not demand it is a coward; he who is indifferent to it is a slave; he who does not desire it is dead. -- Eugene Debs

    by kharma on Thu Aug 28, 2014 at 10:42:16 AM PDT

    •  I've been saying for a number of years (60+ / 0-)

      we have become the Soviet Union we fought so many years to defeat. More and more searches, police militarization, etc.

      There has never been a protracted war from which a country has benefited. The supreme art of war is to subdue the enemy without fighting. - Sun Tzu

      by OHeyeO on Thu Aug 28, 2014 at 01:57:53 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  The more we allow conservatives to rule us (31+ / 0-)

        The more we become just like the nations we (claim to) abhor.

        From Nazi Germany, to Stalin's Russia, conservatism leads us in the exact same direction.

      •  US as bad as USSR (19+ / 0-)

        I've been thinking a lot about that lately. It seems to me that having the Soviet Union to oppose made us a better country, or at least made the white bigots act better so they could look down at the Soviets. Now that the USSR is gone, they've got no one to impress with their superior government and morals, so they have turned their bigotry back towards minorities in the US. We used to pride ourselves in not shooting citizens down in cold blood the way the Soviet police did. It was better a criminal got away than to deprive them of their judicial rights. Now? The right wing bigots don't care and actually applaud Putin and his heavy handed government. It's absolutely crazy.

        •  Well, Sort Of (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          silverfoxcruiser

          Lynchings of black people continued throughout the south and even occasionally in the north with no  more recriminations than today right up to the '50s despite the existence of the USSR. Because of the USSR, I would say the elites rather than the bigots had to act more civilly and be willing to give up at least a little to keep the masses happy. During the Great Depression and even later, Socialism and Communism were not the evil words they are today among the working class. It was fear of a Socialist uprising more than anything that forced a mostly unwilling elite to create the Social safety net, make concessions to Union organizing, and finally start doing something about discrimination, not any real compassion. But it wasn't just goodies; if  the social safety net was the velvet glove, HUAC was the club - if liberal elites like Dashiell Hammett could be forced into line by legal intimidation and threats, what chance did the little guy have. It is no coincidence that neoliberalism arrived in full force almost the minute the Wall came down. The return of white fear of people of colour (and tiny 'terrorists') can be laid at the doorstep of globalization, privatization etc as jobs become scarcer but for the elites, neoliberalism is just a return to business as usual before the inconvenience of the USSR. Militarizing the police and using the media to encourage the working class to focus on some evil 'other' like people of colour, Muslims, or immigrant children or in a constant state of War even if it is just war on Christmas is just part of doing business.

        •  New slogan for our country (3+ / 0-)

          "US...now with more SR!"

        •  Sure they do...the Muslims... (0+ / 0-)

          While it's true  that a certain percentage of fanatic fundamentalist Muslims would like to see America destroyed, not all do. In fact, a majority of Muslims do not. But America's continuing attitude towards Muslims have hardened many previously moderate Muslims toward America. We continually shoot ourselves in the collective foot because of the rampant ignorance of much of our population, including many idiotic Republican legislators on both the Federal and State level. It boggles the mind.

          They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin...

          by Iztlan on Sat Aug 30, 2014 at 08:08:08 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  Actually, it is happening in other ways as well (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        snwflk

        The Soviet Union had a series of industries, each of which had monopoly economic power in that country.  This evolved slightly when it broke up and the largest part of it become the Russian state.  The ones who ran the Soviet industries before now run the new companies, and have a more than cozy relationship with the government.  (The few that didn't, like Yukos, were promptly destroyed).  Some industries, like oil and gas, divided up the vast country into geographic regions.

        The US contains many companies, but many of the largest seek to become monopolies through mergers and acquisitions.  They also have a very cozy relationship with the government, which makes sure they have access to public lands and resources and receive generous treatment in government contracts and taxation.  (ex: GE). Despite popular belief, these companies have contempt for the free market system; they want to control markets, not participate in them.

        Every day we become a little more like Russia, which isn't that much different than the old USSR.

        Freedom From Guns: everyone deserves to live

        by ldness on Sat Aug 30, 2014 at 03:26:35 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  I Didn't Believe It (45+ / 0-)

      I didn't believe that we were living in a police state up until recently - thought it was a few screwed up cops but the majority were decent.  I am seriously rethinking this whole thing of late.  If not already there, we are headed in that direction, fast!  

    •  Truth. I've been in almost the exact same place (47+ / 0-)

      ... getting harassed by a power-tripping cop simply because I refused to tell him my name or my business. But then I'm a hick-ish sounding white guy, so I didn't get arrested for bullshit reasons.

      The cop eventually just left me alone, you know, with a 'warning' that I needed to be more cooperative. Boy, that encounter (along with a few others) sure made me feel like cooperating! And cops wonder why people don't like or trust them.

      •  Whereas.... (18+ / 0-)

        ...if you had a British accent, like me, he would have skipped the warning. I can tell a cop, politely, that he has no right to know anything about me before he arrests me, and he'd better have a good reason if he does.

        But I've never been under the illusion that this is normal behavior for cops.

        This is the landscape that we understand, -
        And till the principle of things takes root,
        How shall examples move us from our calm?

        (Mary Oliver, "Beyond the Snow Belt.")

        by sagesource on Thu Aug 28, 2014 at 05:57:31 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Politely being a key word here. (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Zumrum13, azibuck, nyer11Oak

          This may get some reaction, but here goes...

          I know there's a lot of anger about unfair or unjust or biased or ___ behavior by police, but I wonder if we are not creating an environment where these types of events are becoming unnecessarily confrontational. In almost every video or audio recording I've seen like this over the last month, by the time the recording starts the citizen being confronted by police is being defensive and/or argumentative and "knows their rights" and "hasn't done anything wrong."

          In my -- yes, limited and white -- experience, that is not the best way to defuse a situation with police when being approached as a person of interest. Remaining calm, being respectful of the authority of their position, and perhaps most of all, doing nothing to increase their level of tension are, I believe, effective behavioral techniques to go through the episode with the best possible result.

          I am not denying that there are individuals, and even entire departments, for whom no level of cooperation will suffice to defuse their intent to target certain people because of race or other factors. But are we painting a whole group of people with one brush, stereotyping them and setting for ourselves an expectation of behavior on their part that becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy?

          My δόγμα ate my Σ

          by jubal8 on Thu Aug 28, 2014 at 07:10:37 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  No. (23+ / 0-)

            We are creating an environment where these types of events are becoming necessarily confrontational.

            There is no law that obliges me to be polite to a cop, and if one comes up and starts to harass me, politely or otherwise, if I respond with "Fuck the hell off and leave me alone," his JOB is to say, "Yes, sir, I'm sorry sir, I shouldn't be bothering you," and then fuck the hell off and leave me alone.

            To put the torture behind us is, inevitably, to put it in front of us.

            by UntimelyRippd on Thu Aug 28, 2014 at 07:34:22 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Yes, you're absolutely right. (5+ / 0-)

              I don't know what came over me, saying such stupid things. I'll take this as a lesson and do better in the future.

              My apologies for disrupting your day, Mr. or Ms. UntimelyRippd.

              My δόγμα ate my Σ

              by jubal8 on Thu Aug 28, 2014 at 07:47:23 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  Gee (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              jubal8

              I hope you are being sarcastic (the problem with written as opposed to spoken language). I don't see any reason to not be polite and respectful, at least in the beginning. If it is not reciprocated, then stay polite. By doing that, you have taken the high road. Sure, there is no law that requires an immediate response to a police question. At the same time, unless you are black, the police may have a very good reason for asking so they can quickly eliminate you as a person of interest.

              There are a bunch of idiots deliberately doing suspicious things, like video-taping individuals coming out of a government building. Naturally, after awhile, somebody will call local law enforcement. These people desperately try to get the officers to become confrontational. So far, I have't seen a single one where the police are anything but respectful and leave if thet see the videographer is looking for a confrontation. Yet these rubes act like they "won" somehow.

              I can't help but wonder how that would work out if the videographer was black.

              •  This guy was respectful. Until the cops started to (12+ / 0-)

                arrest him for doing nothing! If you are black being respectful doesn't work. He does not, repeat, does not have to identify himself to the police just because he is sitting there. I hope he wins a really big sum of money from suing the cops and the bank.

              •  Wasn't actually being sarcastic. (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                BvueDem

                It seemed like a good time to put my words into practice. The respondent took a very belligerent tone in his reply, so I chose to use a little verbal jū yoku gō o seisu to try to avoid an argument. It seemed to work rather well.

                My δόγμα ate my Σ

                by jubal8 on Fri Aug 29, 2014 at 08:07:23 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  What's there to argue about? (3+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  kirnerpilstime, NotYerX, jubal8

                  I'm not mad at you. I think you're wrong, and I said so. Yeah, I was belligerent, but not towards you: I'm belligerent towards cops who don't understand their proper role in society.

                  To put the torture behind us is, inevitably, to put it in front of us.

                  by UntimelyRippd on Sat Aug 30, 2014 at 01:23:41 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Oops. (0+ / 0-)

                    I thought Gordob's comment was to me. I haven't been in that many threads that went so far to the right. Of the page.

                    Nope, nothing to argue about. I think neither of us is wrong; we'll just get different results in our interactions with police.

                    My δόγμα ate my Σ

                    by jubal8 on Sat Aug 30, 2014 at 09:37:41 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

              •  No, I'm not being sarcastic. (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                justm1ke

                The authority of the police to enforce the law and preserve the police does not, contrary to what anybody might thing, grant them some sort of special social status obliging me to treat them with deference. Unless they have a legitimate reason to be talking to me, they are no different from any other assholes on the street who might come up and start bothering me, except that they are public servants, and thus they are obliged to treat ME with deference.

                The proper attitude of a policeman towards any citizen who is not breaking the law is one of obeisance.

                To put the torture behind us is, inevitably, to put it in front of us.

                by UntimelyRippd on Sat Aug 30, 2014 at 01:21:39 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

              •  And by the way, I never said there was a (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                kirnerpilstime

                reason to not be polite and respectful, nor did I assert that I would, or would want, to be impolite and disrespectful. The only thing I asserted -- or at least the implication of what I said -- is that regardless of whether it's justified I have every goddamned right to treat a police officer with unbridled contempt, if that's what I want to do, and he has every goddamned right in that circumstance to turn the fuck around and walk away, and no goddamned right to do anything else.

                It's not a crime to tell someone who is bothering you to piss off, whether that someone is a panhandler, a hari krishna proselytizer, an irritating drunk, or a police officer, on duty or off.

                To put the torture behind us is, inevitably, to put it in front of us.

                by UntimelyRippd on Sat Aug 30, 2014 at 01:29:29 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

            •  Another thing that strikes me.... (10+ / 0-)

              Watching that video is how the second (male) cop completely escalated the situation. The black guy was friendly toward him, and then the cop snarls at him, "You're going to jail, I'm not your brother" or something like that.

              I've noticed that's a trend with cops lately -- they behave in really nasty and disrespectful ways toward everybody else (though especially minorities) and then act like they have no idea why people act cold or hostile toward them. It's like they want to create these situations so they can exercise their power. They don't even attempt to have a respectful conversation with people in the community -- and in many cases, I would bet that they think their behavior is perfectly normal because they're so integrated in this macho cop culture where that's just how you talk to the plebians.

          •  Person of interest? What?? (18+ / 0-)

            Sitting on a bench makes him a person of interest? Or is it being black that makes him a POI? You do NOT need to verbally identify yourself, or produce identification, to law enforcement simply because they ask. They need to answer questions about why they are asking for identification - has a crime been committed nearby? looks like me? Know your rights but I guess if you are black, an entirely different set of rules applies. We are in trouble, I think.

            •  According to the police report, (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              BvueDem, azibuck

              officers were called to the scene because of a complaint a of an "uncooperative male refusing to leave." Regardless of the validity of the complaint, for the responding officers that makes him a person of interest. In my comment my intended meaning was more general -- any person who becomes the focus of attention of an officer in performance of their patrol or a specific investigation.

              Instead of responding with something like "I don't have to show you my ID," a POI might ask "has there been a complaint about me specifically and would you please tell me the nature of that complaint?" Does that have the same prospect of escalating tension in the situation?

              If a person wants to take their being stopped and questioned and turn it into a personal protest against injustice, that's their choice. I personally would want to get on with my life.

              My δόγμα ate my Σ

              by jubal8 on Thu Aug 28, 2014 at 09:03:04 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  So a person deserves to be arrested (10+ / 0-)

                Because a business owner whose business resides near a public bench is annoyed that a person is sitting there, in that public place?

                Last I checked, if I'm sitting peacefully on a city bench on a public street just outside some random restaurant, dry cleaner, nail salon, WHATEVER, not smoking crack/brandishing a weapon/punching someone/spray painting said bench, ETC, the owner or employee of the aforementioned random business has no right to call the cops and have me arrested.

                We are all students and teachers. I often ask myself: "What did I come here to learn, and what did I come to teach?"

                by nerafinator on Thu Aug 28, 2014 at 09:47:24 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

              •  Politeness should not factor! (16+ / 0-)

                The emotional disposition of the POI should not enter into a decision by the cop in a case like this.  The "POI" has no obligation to identify himself and the cop has every responsibility to treat this person with respect and patience.

                Of course our mothers taught us that being polite helps you get along with people.

                But the very fact that the cop approached this man without ANY justifiable reason -- and a business complaining that someone is sitting on a public bench is NOT a justifiable reason - is gross police misconduct.

                --United Citizens defeated Citizens United...This time. --

                by chipoliwog on Thu Aug 28, 2014 at 10:26:45 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  I agree -- respect should go both ways. (4+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  BvueDem, Trevin, azibuck, ram27

                  And the police should exercise greater restraint and engage with a higher standard of respect, both because they are our paid enforcers of the law and because they are ostensibly in a position of greater power.

                  From the story above I do not know what details the officers had about the complaint, whether they interviewed the person who called police before they approached Mr. Lollie, or even any undisputed facts of the events that transpired between first approach and the beginning of the video. I may have missed something, but none of that is necessary to the point that I am trying to make.

                  That point is stated below in this thread under the subject "After reading my comments."

                  My δόγμα ate my Σ

                  by jubal8 on Fri Aug 29, 2014 at 12:05:14 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Not Only (4+ / 0-)

                    Not only should the police have exercised greater restraint, but they should have pointed out to the  BUSINESS OWNER that ANYONE could sit on that bench.  In fact, even if the bench was inside the business, since that business was open to the public AND the bench was unmarked, anyone could sit there for whatever reason.  (Didn't folks establish that point at the lunch counter in Nashville?)

                    The business owner (or manager, or whatever) who called the cops needs to be sued.  The police need to be chastised (and, possibly, sued) for not informing the manager of the rights of the father who sat there.

                    There was, clearly, no suspicion of the commission of a crime by the bench-sitter.  No questions about any possible lawbreaking.  What we see is creeping (or, perhaps, galloping) fascism.  A melding of corporations and the State.  

                    Many police are the new paramilitary Brown Shirts. They were once called 'peace officers', and sworn to 'protect and serve' the community.  Now, they are 'LAW ENFORCEMENT' henchmen, and we all know who writes today's law (hint:  It's not the people).  This 'circle of blue' bullpucky needs to end.

                    I'm white, and I offer a warning to those of you who share my skin color.  If a store manager decides that you can't sit on a bench (or use a restroom) that was clearly  put there as a public convenience, for any reason, then he CAN ALSO say that you can't sit there because you have a 'Southern drawl', or wear blue jeans, or have blue eyes or blonde hair.  By supporting this right of the 'ownership class', you are denying the very words of our Declaration of Independence and supporting the feudal lords who we fought against in a war of independence.

                    If you are such a Royalist, I suggest you move to a country that supports your view.  The first that comes to mind is Saudi Arabia.

              •  Did you listen to the audio? (16+ / 0-)

                The man was incredibly polite and kept asking what he had done wrong.

                Two hundred fifty years of slavery. Ninety years of Jim Crow. Sixty years of separate but equal. Thirty-five years of racist housing policy. Until we reckon with our compounding moral debts, America will never be whole. - Ta-Nehisi Coates

                by moviemeister76 on Fri Aug 29, 2014 at 03:14:03 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

              •  You are reacting the way other men and women re... (9+ / 0-)

                You are reacting the way other men and women react to a rape victim's story. Everyone wants to believe that if only we do the right things, dress modestly, stay away from dark alleys, don't get drunk, we won't get raped. Those mythological mantras help is feel like we actually have some control over whether we or someone we love could get raped, when the true reality is quite the opposite and much much more terrifying.

              •  In my experience posing a question to a police (8+ / 0-)

                officer usually just gets a response of hostility and "do as you are told, don't answer back to me".
                and I am white.
                It is unreasonable to expect ordinary people to have to fend off over-zealous and violent police officers who feel they have a license to beat on Black people.  
                True, the victim (POI as you've called him) can handle things more or less well, but to put the blame on someone victimised by racist police, who have guns and authority on their side, is not clear thinking.

                •  Our experiences are different, (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Maggiemad, BvueDem

                  and perhaps that says more about the police departments where we live than it does about how we behaved in those situations.

                  I'm not happy with the term POI; according to the definitions I've read it is a term used specifically in investigations where a crime is being investigated. In Mr. Lollie's case person of interest doesn't exactly apply because there was no 'crime' at the point when he was first questioned -- nor later, as indicated by the dropping of charges. AND, as indicated by the content of the video; I am in agreement with people here on that point.

                  But characterizing anyone who is spoken to by any police officer anywhere as a 'victim' seems entirely inappropriate. To characterize every police officer as racist because some are is prejudice, plain and simple.

                  My δόγμα ate my Σ

                  by jubal8 on Fri Aug 29, 2014 at 10:25:26 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  All persons of any color being confronted by the (3+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    BvueDem, Maggiemad, mwm341

                    police are, at that point, victims of the general police attitude that we, the citizens of this country, are automatically suspect.  As one very smart and thoughtful lawyer told me early in my career, we are all on probation.

                    Patriotism may be the last refuge of scoundrels, but religion is assuredly the first.

                    by StrayCat on Fri Aug 29, 2014 at 01:27:57 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

              •  You make points again (5+ / 0-)

                But you are sitting at your computer calmly thinking of what you would say, and you are white..as I am...and I would bet your fear level doesn't rise when you have cops approaching you.  You are typing out what you would say and that is a reasoned question that I would say would work for some of us and is worth a try.

                He was sitting there waiting to his kids and they approached.  I personally, even being white and sitting in my safe chair, reacted to the thought of him not being there when his kids came out.  I would wager that his experience with police hasn't been the same as yours, so those reasoned and calm words may not come out in the panic of the moment.  Heck, I was at a stoplight one day with a police car behind me that was stopped as well.  Suddenly he turned on lights and sirens two feet from my car and was trying to get around me to take off.  I frankly panicked and went forward so he didn't run over me, and I wasn't sure if he was after me or off to an emergency.  So I ended up gunning my car in sheer startlement and going about 4 feet into the intersection.  It's amazing none of the traffic hit either one of us.  He gunned it and raced off between cars and I sat there terrified until my heart stopped pounding.  By then the light turned green, but my child was screaming in the back seat and I had to pull over and collect myself and comfort the little one.  If he had come to talk to me I have no idea what I would have said since I was scared and angry that he did that so close to my car and scared my child so badly.  I know he didn't do that on purpose, but really...geez.

                My point is that I never gun my car into a busy intersection and that made no logical sense.  I was startled, scared, and acted irrationally, which is NOT in my usual reaction at all to emergencies.  There is fear in his voice...whether he knew not to be there and was I have no idea, but he did repeatedly tell them he was waiting for his kids and that was all he was doing.  I think he did kind of panic and it would have helped if he just said his name.  But in the heat of the moment with cops standing around you it can be hard to think calmly whether you are guilty or innocent, and if they had asked questions casually about where they went to school and chatted with him in a friendly manner with smiles instead of bringing out the arrest so quickly it might have helped as well.  Then they could bring up whatever issue the employees were talking about and deal with it more calmly.

                Let's face it.  Relations between police and citizens...especially citizens with darker skin...aren't very good in many places and situations, and it will take calm on all sides to fix the problem.  Not all cops are racists and not all blacks are lurking to commit crimes.  The stereotyping goes both ways.  

                •  If the cops had been polite... (6+ / 0-)

                  Your comment "if they had asked questions casually about where they went to school and chatted with him in a friendly manner with smiles instead of bringing out the arrest so quickly it might have helped as well.  Then they could bring up whatever issue the employees were talking about and deal with it more calmly." is so spot on. Why is Jubal8 putting all the need to be polite on the victim, who in this case did begin very politely.
                  Jubal, you sound very rational, but also very naive.

            •  Although, even being white, I start off, very (5+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              AuroraDawn, ram27, StrayCat, jubal8, mwm341

              polite and respectful of them. IF, they do not return that respect, my cooperation gets reduced proportionately. That said, I keep in mind that he's the one with the gun, tazer and nightstick. You've got to keep a cool head, or get it bent.

              •  I think even if the man was less than polite (4+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                oldmilitant, ram27, jubal8, mwm341

                It doesn't justify being treated differently.
                Whether I am curt with a cop or ask him how his day is going, I don't expect to receive different treatment, nor should anyone else.
                Asserting your rights isn't rude, it's your right to assert them.
                Asking for a store clerk to adhere to store policy shouldn't be met with disdain and ensure your experience is different than someone who is ignorant thereof.

                I understand cops are people too, but all to often we are told to exempt them from proper behaviors and give up our rights simply to "please them", instead of insisting they behave the way they are supposed to.

              •  But that doesn't fix things (3+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                StrayCat, jubal8, mwm341

                You can have a cool head and still get it bent is what the real point is.  If a cop is coming toward me and is already thinking I am guilty or whatever or doesn't care what I think or think that I matter, or is feeling superior, then even if I say "Sir" or "Ma'am" and answer questions I can still get hurt.  I am white and had that happen as a child who definitely didn't deserve what happened.  

                I don't think Schnitzie meant that all cops are racist and violent, but the idea that if you do all the right things nothing bad will happen to you at the hands of a cop is just wrong and implies that everyone who gets hurt by an overzealous cop must be doing something wrong.  

                I can look at that video and see better ways from a psychological standpoint that both sides on the video might have handled this better.  Why aren't LEO learning better ways to handle situations so they don't have to scream and assault people or get assaulted so often themselves?  They can't control the fact that there really are violent criminals out there, but neither can the civilians control the fact that many cops aren't taught well and that some are on a power trip or angry or scared.  It's hard all around...but pretending that if I cooperate all will be well is a fairy tale that can be dangerous.

            •  I agree, we are in big trouble. (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              ram27

              And we have been for a long long time.

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              by peregrine kate on Fri Aug 29, 2014 at 08:35:23 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

          •  What you just described (11+ / 0-)

            Is victim blaming. Lots and lots of victim blaming.

            It's like telling a woman she wouldn't have been raped if she would have just lied still, not made any noise, and been polite to the person controlling her body against her will.

            Shame on you.

            We are all students and teachers. I often ask myself: "What did I come here to learn, and what did I come to teach?"

            by nerafinator on Thu Aug 28, 2014 at 09:42:55 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  So that I may better understand my shame, (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              azibuck

              please refer back to specific remarks in my original post and explain how what I wrote expresses "lots and lots of victim blaming."

              My δόγμα ate my Σ

              by jubal8 on Thu Aug 28, 2014 at 10:07:01 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  You opined (11+ / 0-)

                that a person essentially deserves to be arrested if they are not polite and sheep-compliant anytime they are approached by a police officer in any setting for any reason. That they brought it upon themselves by acting in XYZ rude but not-illegal way, that they would have been just fine if they had only been the utmost of docile and polite and hadn't dared to ask/do such incendiary things as

                being defensive and/or argumentative and "knows their rights" and "hasn't done anything wrong."
                Yes, how dare that poor man state to the officers handcuffing him in front of his children's school that he hasn't done anything wrong because...surprise...he hasn't done anything wrong.

                Blaming an innocent person (victim) for the terrible behavior of a person (aggressor) who is terrible to that innocent person is VICTIM BLAMING. Applies to all manner of abusive situations including school bullying, police aggressiveness/brutality, abusive familial and romantic relationships, rape, etc.

                We are all students and teachers. I often ask myself: "What did I come here to learn, and what did I come to teach?"

                by nerafinator on Thu Aug 28, 2014 at 10:18:16 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  After reading my comments (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  azibuck

                  you seem to have 'learned' that I was making a case that the individual deserved to be arrested. In rereading my statements I fail to find anything that in the slightest way suggests that -- either explicitly or implicitly.

                  My point has been and still is that, in any confrontation with people placed in authority over us -- people who are sanctioned to use deadly force if events warrant, it is in the best interests of the individual to choose behavior that brings that interaction to a peaceful resolution.

                  Having survived the day, they then can go on to vote, organize, protest, run for office, or take any number of other actions that may bring about change of the power structure that has led to all of these tragic incidents.

                  My δόγμα ate my Σ

                  by jubal8 on Thu Aug 28, 2014 at 11:40:06 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Your point is "comply". (3+ / 0-)

                    You simply recommend that we do whatever the police ask whenever they ask it with no questions asked. Give up our right to privacy. Your whole rational point is "Just do whatever they say." That is bullshit.

                  •  The police have not been placed in authority (4+ / 0-)

                    over us.  That is the basic error.  The authority is only activated, if you will, where there is a crime, and the cop has probable cause to believe that the person confronted is the person committing the crime, or, there is an emergency situation, and traffic control, pedestrian or vehicular is required by the circumstances.

                    Patriotism may be the last refuge of scoundrels, but religion is assuredly the first.

                    by StrayCat on Fri Aug 29, 2014 at 01:35:50 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

              •  you basically (10+ / 0-)

                Implied that the man in the video wasn't polite enough.

                Perhaps he should have bowed and licked the cops shoes as he said please don't touch me.

                •  Please reread carefully (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  azibuck

                  I never gave suggestions about what Mr. Lollie should have done. Or stated that he personally might have achieved a different outcome by taking a more polite approach. If fact I stated that in some cases there may be nothing a person can do to thwart the ill will of bad cops.

                  Your reduction to absurdity of the direction of my comments... well, it's not helpful in all honesty.

                  My δόγμα ate my Σ

                  by jubal8 on Fri Aug 29, 2014 at 12:44:59 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Diffusing a Situation (2+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    jubal8, mwm341

                    When dealing with a potentially violent agitator or aggressor, the mindset is to not provoke them, or do things to agitate them, to the end of getting away from the situation so one's person isn't placed in avoidable danger. This is how people are supposed to handle potentially dangerous aggressors that haven't yet acted violently or committed a crime. Is that really how your average person should handle their interactions with the police?

                    Also, your statement, "...I stated that in some cases there may be nothing a person can do to thwart the ill will of bad cops," implies that it is possible to avoid people who approach you with malicious intent. This is, for the most part, a myth. You have two options when people with malicious intent approach you with the goal of doing you harm; run, or fight. Whatever you do, do not comply. Contrary to popular belief, that is how people get killed.  Do not go into the alleyway, do not go into the house, do not get into the car, even if they tell you to do all of that at gunpoint. Especially if they tell you to do all that at gunpoint. Run, kick, bite, punch, lever whatever force you can to get away.

                    Though, in the case of the police, you'll probably just wind up arrested, beaten, groped, and slandered to justify the mistreatment. You know, that's not much better than what your average violent criminal will do to you. So just don't comply in the event of a police officer trying to violate your rights. It's not much different than complying with a criminal that is attempting to violate your rights. You don't want to put your life in the hands of someone who gives not a single fuck if you live or die, and would just as soon kill you as talk with you. So the above advice applies even to police officers. Check.

          •  Good point jubal8! (9+ / 0-)

            If I just give up my first and fourth amendment rights the police interactions go dandy!

            •  Snark appreciated (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              azibuck

              And if I choose to view and interact with every police officer as though they were as bad as the worst of them, then my chances of being jailed or shot are more guaranteed than my insured domestic tranquility.

              My δόγμα ate my Σ

              by jubal8 on Fri Aug 29, 2014 at 12:27:16 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

          •  so you think (11+ / 0-)

            The guy in the video wasn't being calm and polite?

            His wasn't yelling or cursing. He said please don't do this.  Please don't touch me.  

            What part of that is rude?

            What more should he have done?  

            •  Oh, yeah, he wasn't agitated at all (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              mwm341, BvueDem

              /sarcasm

            •  So again I will point out what I didn't say... (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              BvueDem

              And I don't direct that subject line only at you, EastCoastChick. Almost every reply to my comments in this thread is based on misinterpretations of what I have said.

              I have never commented specifically on Mr. Lollie's behavior, especially I did not say that he was rude. I have never said that my suggested approach to an interaction with police officers is guaranteed to result in a peaceful outcome; in fact I have declared that there may be nothing one can do to avoid a tragic result.

              But going into the interaction with an expectation of, or a fear of, a bad result is more likely to produce that result.

              When the video starts Mr. Lollie and the police are walking. You might ask a police officer for their opinion, but I believe that, unless the parties have agreed to walk somewhere together, that will always be perceived by officers as a situation that requires a higher level of engagement on their part.

              My δόγμα ate my Σ

              by jubal8 on Fri Aug 29, 2014 at 09:04:42 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  You are saying two things at once (4+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                ram27, StrayCat, Maggiemad, mwm341

                First, there's context.  Everyone was discussing the video.  Then you comment that one should be really, really nice to police to avoid getting a beat down.

                Of course people would take it that you were saying Lollie wasn't nice enough.  Context.

                But then you say that you weren't at all discussing Lollie's conduct.  But just making general commentary about the proper way to engage with the police.

                But in the next breath you say this:

                When the video starts Mr. Lollie and the police are walking. You might ask a police officer for their opinion, but I believe that, unless the parties have agreed to walk somewhere together, that will always be perceived by officers as a situation that requires a higher level of engagement on their part.
                Is that not a criticism of Lollie's behavior?  

                So which is it?

                If many people are perceiving your comments a certain way, maybe there's something about what you wrote that makes them think it.  

                •  Context (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  BvueDem

                  If you check the timestamps of my comments, my statements about what I did or didn't say are accurate within their respective timeframes. Just to be clear, I'm really not asking you to do that.

                  Because most everyone replying was taking my generalized statements and applying them to this specific case, I began to write about the specifics of Mr. Lollie's incident.

                  Is that not a criticism of Lollie's behavior?
                  That statement that you quoted was about how I believe police are likely to view and react to someone's behavior. It was not a criticism of Mr. Lollie's behavior.

                  My δόγμα ate my Σ

                  by jubal8 on Fri Aug 29, 2014 at 11:31:29 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                •  And... (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  BvueDem

                  the comment that I originally replied to was not specifically about the case of Mr. Lollie. The writer was commenting on his own experience.

                  My δόγμα ate my Σ

                  by jubal8 on Fri Aug 29, 2014 at 11:40:24 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

              •  Maybe you ought to consider (0+ / 0-)

                that if literally every person who read your comments sees them as victim blaming, then it might not be that everyone else is misinterpreting you so much as that what you did was in fact to blame the victim.

                Maybe you should think about the fact that when EVERYONE ELSE says that the sky is blue, and you are the only one insisting that it is green, it might not be that the whole rest of the world is wrong.

              •  Non-sequitor (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                jubal8

                "But going into the interaction with an expectation of, or a fear of, a bad result is more likely to produce that result."

                One's expectations and fears have zero effect on another person's actions, unless one preemptively acts on those expectations and fears. In any case, it's wise to be prepared.

                Actually, it's more likely to avoid a bad result, because a rational person will be acting to head that result off. You should always be ready for things to go south. And if you're not afraid of those circumstances, when there is a very real possibility of having to experience them imminently, then there's something odd going on inside your head.

                •  You speak to the core of my message here, (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  BvueDem

                  although I disagree with your statement that "one's expectations and fears have zero effect on another person's actions."

                  I believe we give off all kind of signals revealing our emotional state -- eye movements, facial tics, body language, pheromones, etc. -- that others pick up on consciously or subconsciously. People can be trained to recognize many of these signals, and I would expect that it is a standard part of police training in many places.

                  To have no fear in a situation like this may be beyond many or most peoples' grasp, especially for those who have direct or indirect experience of mistreatment, brutality or tragedy at the hands of police. But to act without allowing that fear to control us in how we respond to the situation -- that is at least part of the way to achieve an optimal outcome.

                  My δόγμα ate my Σ

                  by jubal8 on Fri Aug 29, 2014 at 08:54:12 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

              •  So again I will point out what I didn't say.. (0+ / 0-)

                perhaps you need to write more clearly, because no one yet has understood what you really meant to say.  It that their fault or yours?  

            •  Identify Himself (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              BvueDem, jubal8

              He should have done the one thing the police asked, which was to identify himself.  They do have the right to ask if they were called with a complaint specifically about him, regardless of whether or not that complaint was justified.  I'd be willing to bet that any time a person interacting with police says "I know my rights...." or "You can't make me....." or "I don't have to....." - that person is going to end up in the back of a police car with snot running down their face after being beaten or pepper sprayed, and that's regardless of the color of their skin or how polite they were when they said those things.  I'm pretty much a flaming liberal in most regards, but I think the police have the right to expect compliance rather than arguments - even polite arguments.

              •  Why? (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                BvueDem

                Patriotism may be the last refuge of scoundrels, but religion is assuredly the first.

                by StrayCat on Fri Aug 29, 2014 at 01:39:51 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

              •  Depends (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                BvueDem

                If they actually do know their rights, and they actually can't legally make them, and they actually legally don't have to, then the only thing it comes down to is who can hit harder.

                I don't care if you're a flaming liberal or neocon or a reformed libertarian or a socialist or what-the-hell-ever, you're dead wrong about this.

              •  Yes, Newbie (0+ / 0-)

                You're going a long way towards proving you're a "flaming liberal" with posts like this. /eyeroll

              •   Identify Himself (0+ / 0-)

                This has been brought up several times.  Maybe I'm naive, but doesn't this sound like a police state where you have to carry your 'papers' with you at all times or be subject to arrest (even having committed no crime)

              •  Could not disagree more. (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                jubal8

                The question to ask is, "Are you detaining me, officer, or am I free to go?"  

                That's it.  That's the response.  The cops are NOT allowed to demand the papers of anyone they see on the street.  That was Nazi Germany.  

                This is NOT a fucking police state, at least not theoretically.  

                 

                "Kindness in words creates confidence. Kindness in thinking creates profoundness. Kindness in giving creates love." - Lao Tzu

                by mozartssister on Fri Aug 29, 2014 at 04:14:27 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

              •  I disagree w/ u, but I welcome u to DK if u r (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                jubal8

                sincere in working to elect better and more Democrats.

                I see you joined today, Aug 29, 2014, and you have posted 6 comments so far, 4 on Ferguson.

                You write:

                [The police] do have the right to ask [him to identify himself] if they were called with a complaint specifically about him, regardless of whether or not that complaint was justified.
                What Minnesota or St. Paul statute requires this? I'm looking for it! I haven't found it. Minnesota is not included in the Wikipedia list of 23 states (and Kansas City, MO) which require identification to police.

                You write:

                "I'd be willing to bet ... that's regardless of the color of their skin or how polite they were when they said those things."
                On what basis do you draw this conclusion?

                To be sure, I also would give my name and offer my ID if the police asked me. I appreciate their role in society, and I have not been subject to a pattern of discrimination by them based on my ethnicity.

          •  Ask Michael Brown's parents. (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Oh Mary Oh, Schnitzie, ram27

            Or you could ask pretty much any member of a group that gets profiled based on what they look like.

            I think you need to review your question.

            Strengthen the Senate! ROCK THE HOUSE!

            by mwm341 on Fri Aug 29, 2014 at 04:17:12 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  "Any member of a group that gets profiled" (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              azibuck, BvueDem

              So could I ask any police man or woman, just because they look like others who wear a blue uniform, badge and gun belt, what it feels like to be judged and criticized harshly as though they were a violent criminal ready to attack anyone who refused to instantly submit to their authority?

              Is that not painting all of one group with the same brush? Is that not prejudice?

              Maybe that cop is a good person, a parent with a family that they support. Maybe he or she always tries to do their best in difficult situations. Maybe that person struggles every day with tough decisions they have to make, because their job is to walk into tense or dangerous situations that most people would want to avoid.

              Honestly, I am amazed at the lynch mob mentality here. I feel like there is nothing I can do to explain my call for moderation and dialogue without someone attacking me for some opinion they seem to think I have expressed.

              My δόγμα ate my Σ

              by jubal8 on Fri Aug 29, 2014 at 08:25:00 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  I created a login just to recommend all your posts (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                jubal8, BvueDem

                The level of vitriol directed at your reasonable comments is quite surprising to me. Does anyone remember the All in the Family episode where Mike and Archie told conflicting stories about a black apprentice that was at the Bunker's house? Archie's was of a machete-wielding Black Panther-type, and Mike's was of an obedient, slavish, "yessuh massuh" innocent? And the truth was somewhere in between, as told by Edith? (The episode was called Everybody Tells the Truth).

                That's what this thread reminds me of. The man was not at all calm or cooperative as some "assert". Was he sitting while black? Possibly/probably. It's not his responsibility to keep the cops calm, but the situation became what he contributed to it: confrontational, disrespectful.

                I am white. My son is black (14 years old). I'm sorry, I will not teach him to be disrespectful, disobedient and agitated when dealing with police. This guy was, but yes, those are not arrestable offenses. I'll teach my son not to have his rights trampled, but it's down on the list, at least at #2. Number one is keeping him alive, safe, and out of the judicial system completely. I'll not apologize for that.

                •  Thank you, azibuck (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  BvueDem

                  Because I am being tarred and feathered here, I have hesitated to recommend anyone's comments for fear of causing them to be guilty by association.

                  Because you have donned protection, I will say thank you for your understanding and support.

                  My δόγμα ate my Σ

                  by jubal8 on Fri Aug 29, 2014 at 09:19:55 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Just stop it already. (2+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    mwm341, jubal8

                    So now you're the victim?  Take a look at yourself, right now.  Do you see any actual tar?  Any feathers?  No, of course you don't, because there aren't any.  All that's happened is that you engaged in a discussion/debate over the internet with a bunch of strangers, most of whom disagreed with you, and with good reason I might add.  You get to comfortably go on with your life, just as before.  That is the exact opposite of what happened to Mr. Lollie.  His discussion/debate didn't end that way.  That shit was real - and damaging.  
                         You calmly sit behind your keyboard, don your white privilege, and engage in conjecture about how it all could have turned out differently if only Mr. Lollie was properly servile and obedient.  Then you cry about "mob rule" and being "tarred and feathered" when you have your head handed to you - Oops, did I say that?  Better check to see if you've actually been decapitated!  
                         Pfft.

                    •  Funny, I don't feel like a victim here. (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      BvueDem

                      Nor did I claim to be. Merely perplexed and appreciative of the irony.

                      And with the tar-and-feather remark I meant to cry not foul, but fowl. I am not the bird that some people are trying to make me look like.

                      My δόγμα ate my Σ

                      by jubal8 on Fri Aug 29, 2014 at 10:52:02 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                    •  "Actual tar"? (rolls eyes) (0+ / 0-)

                      You seem unaware that "tar and feather" is an expression, a synonym for "severely criticize".

                      Like this comment, you say "now you're the victim", is just so over-the-top ridiculous. YOU compared this situation in the comments to the one in the video, not jubal8. You do the cause a disservice when you and others in this thread take jubal8's comments out of context, put words in his/her mouth, and make assumptions on his/her motive. Your comments here are nothing short of preposterous.

                      I think we're all on the same side here, ultimately. But jubal8 can't question one small angle of the interaction in the video? I get the 'cult of compliance' but the alternative of the cult of confrontation is no more appealing. But instead of even talking about that angle, you attacked the commenter.

                      •  I'm quite aware that "tar and feather" is an (0+ / 0-)

                        expression, just as I'm sure you're aware that people were actually tarred and feathered at one time.  And yes, I intentionally compared J8's remarks to what actually occurred in the video to drive home the point of the difference in degree of safety in the respective situations.  It's a lot easier to sit behind a keyboard and render judgments about what someone should do in the moment.  I've also seen too much of this passive-aggressive BS where a commenter stirs shit and then acts all hurt at the blowback.  Stir it if you must, but take your cyberlumps without whining.  
                            By the way, it's truly ironic that you complain about me taking "comments out of context,"  putting "words in his/her mouth," and making "assumptions on his/her motive" by lumping me in with other people and what they wrote.  Delicious!  The comment above was my sole one to J8, and it was to call him out on the P-A crap.  I see you two have been having a pity party since then, so you can stew with him.
                             As for your "cult of confrontation," it sure doesn't look to me like Mr. Lollie is a member of a cult!  Oops, there I go again, being literal.  However, while I agree there was a confrontation, to me it was the police who initiated it.  We'll just have to agree to disagree there.
                             Oh, here's something for you two keen observers to chew on.  Did you notice how quickly Mr. Lollie was taken down after the male cops arrived on the scene?  Do you think that was an accident?  Even if Mr. Lollie had been confrontational in the moments leading up to his arrest, how did they know that?  I didn't see the female cop radio anything to anybody during that time.  That's right.  Because there was never any other way this was going to turn out and she was just marking him until they deemed they had achieved superior force for a takedown.  Same old, same old.
                             As for your Black son, congratulations!  I hope he grows up happy, healthy, strong and successful.  However, I'm sure you realize that his experience of this society is going to be fundamentally different than yours.  No doubt that is why you intend to teach him as you will.  However, if after the six, seventh, or twentieth time he is stopped for no reason at all he should happen to react differently, remember Mr. Lollie and try not to be too hard on him.
                             Now for a friendly warning.  Although the site allows users to respond to comments up to three days later, waiting until near the expiration of that time to respond is highly frowned upon.  It's known as deadthreading, and it can get you banned.  Perhaps you don't care about that, but as a newly registered user, I thought I'd let you know.  And I don't really need to hear any excuses about how you had better things to do over Labor Day weekend.  This will be my last comment on the subject.

                        •  Derp (0+ / 0-)

                          >a commenter stirs shit

                          Well, that didn't happen here.

                          >and then acts all hurt at the blowback.

                          And neither did that.

                          >take your cyberlumps without whining.

                          And neither did that.

                          >However, while I agree there was a confrontation, to me it was the police who initiated it.  We'll just have to agree to disagree there.

                          The crux of our whole issue is right there. We DON'T disagree there! You seem to think we do.

                          jubal8 made a reasonable argument about how Mr. Lollie furthered it. People attacked jubal8. Full stop.

                          You wasted keyboard strokes with the talk about Mr. Lollie. Again, we're on the same side.

                          I don't really care if you comment or not. Thanks for the "warning" on deadthreading (ironic, that you replied a long, ponderous reply. Who's the deadthreader?). I'm not trying to win with the last word or anything. I just joined the fucking site, so no, I don't run to my keyboard every two hours to see if anyone recommended my posts or anything.

                          I am curious though, why are you so angry at jubal8? Or me? How many words did you type up to respond to someone that 99% agrees with you, but disagrees with one portion of a hypothetical shoulda/woulda/coulda handled it differently? Consider those questions rhetorical since you're done commenting and I'm just a deadthreading noob and all. I mean, holy shit. if this is how most commenters here handle mild dissent, fuck it, I'll go back to lurking.

                •  That makes sense (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Maggiemad, jubal8

                  Yes, azibuck, I think teaching all kids to not be confrontational when the situation doesn't warrant it is a good idea, and I agree with keeping them alive.  That is part of the fear issue and ratchets situations up.  There are many angles to any situation...

                •  All in the Family: "Everybody Tells the Truth" (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  jubal8

                  Full episode here: http://dvp-potpourri.blogspot.com/... (The YouTube posts I found can't be played in the US, so the video below wouldn't work for me.)

                  Sort of a Rashomon theme, American-style.

                  Thank you for joining DailyKos and speaking up, azibuck. Your personal experiences and insights are most welcomed here. On some issues people disagree strongly. Over time, I've found, one may surprisingly find oneself in agreement with the same people, on different issues. Welcome to the 'family.' :-)

                  Mister, we could use a producer like Norman Lear, again. Those were the days!  

                  •  I'll have to watch the episode again, what... (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    BvueDem

                    some 40 years later now, to fully appreciate the relevance; although, your Rashomon comparison pretty much lays it out.

                    We don't know how long azibuck has been at DailyKos. By his/her own statement the account was created solely to stand in support of my comments in this thread. I see now that I may have assumed incorrectly, but my perception at the time was that this was done to avoid the owner's regular persona from being tarnished by association. So, whether azibuck is newbie, lurker or long-timer, is there another Kurosawa reference that applies?

                    My δόγμα ate my Σ

                    by jubal8 on Sat Aug 30, 2014 at 11:18:33 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Longtime lurker (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      jubal8

                      I've linked to several DailyKos things on my FB account. I'd never commented or had an account, but felt strongly enough about you being tar and feathered (yes, you were), that I wanted to support you. The attacks on you here I find are just... weird.

                      •  This was my first petrol & plumage party here, (0+ / 0-)

                        thrown in my honor, and I was shocked... shocked, I say!

                        Apparently many people -- the right-thinking ones -- are very upset about reading about incidents of Sitting While Black, if that's what this was. In case anyone's still listening, I'm not denying it was; however, a rational observer must admit that some facts are in dispute, unless you choose to ignore them.

                        They are so upset that they want to encourage people approached for SWB to immediately and vehemently express their anger and insist on their rights and protest the injustice of it all and can't we see where that is going?

                        Anyway, you gave me strength. Thank you.

                        My δόγμα ate my Σ

                        by jubal8 on Mon Sep 01, 2014 at 04:06:20 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

              •  the problem is that dialogue with the police is (8+ / 0-)

                not really an option in most circumstances. The police do not listen. The police are looking to arrest or fine people. They are aiming to write up reports, show that they are "doing their job."  They are not out there looking to make friends.

                I'll side with you in your view of the police when I see the police unions organising to
                1) oppose the  militarisation of police forces and reject the purchase of surplus military arms from the federal government
                2) oppose the privatisation of prisons
                3) oppose mandatory and racist drug sentencing laws
                4) oppose physical violence against those in police custody.

                When I see organised police protests and active political and union opposition on these issues, then I will change my view of the police.

              •  I totally agree that assuming.. (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Maggiemad, jubal8

                Assuming all cops are about to kill you isn't reasonable either.  I do agree with that and it goes both ways.  There is fear, suspicion, and misunderstanding all around and everyone has to ratchet things down a bit.  But if you are black I think the experience of the police approaching you feels different than if you are white, just as if you are a homeless person in rags you aren't going to see them the same way you do if you are rich and dressed well.  But if you are black and dressed well that doesn't help and may get you in trouble.  It's to the point where I am not sure anyone can "win".  

              •  There is a difference between prejudging a person (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                BvueDem

                and using well founded experience to judge the danger posed by what have become a military occupation of America.

                Patriotism may be the last refuge of scoundrels, but religion is assuredly the first.

                by StrayCat on Fri Aug 29, 2014 at 01:43:01 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

              •  Perspective (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                jubal8

                I don't think it's prejudiced to treat people trained to engage in violence to subdue people who are resisting them as though they might make a mistake and conflate exercising rights with resistance, and be prepared to act accordingly. They are, after all, human, and therefore prone to error. I'm not out to lynch you, or decry you as some sort of authoritarian, but you are in fact wrong.

                After all, if that cop really is a good guy, then they wouldn't ask me to do anything I'm not legally required to do. And if they slip up, forget the law, and I give them a gentle reminder that I'm not under any legal obligation to comply with a given demand, then they will say, "Yes, you're right, my apologies," or something to that effect. Good police officers do not needlessly harass, let alone needlessly arrest people who haven't done anything wrong, no matter how surly the person's disposition is.

              •  Yes, INCLUDING police. (0+ / 0-)

                And maybe you could start with yourself.

                Strengthen the Senate! ROCK THE HOUSE!

                by mwm341 on Fri Aug 29, 2014 at 08:26:49 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

          •  It's time (9+ / 0-)

            To stand up for one's rights. This man was rightly indignant. I imagine he's had a lifetime of being questioned for just "being."

            I applaud him for resisting and thus bringing this display of bigotry to our attention.   "We" need to be supportive of individual constitutional rights and confrontation of same.

          •  You know, I'm not going to bash you... (8+ / 0-)

            But, you have no idea what you're talking about.  It doesn't matter how you respond to a cop who has an attitude.  My son is as polite as they come (probably the only reason he's still alive)... but, because he has dreads and looks intimidating, he was stopped five times in one year, just walking home from school.  

            Young black men are angry (and black mothers, too).  My son served this country and is now disabled.  His injuries are inside, rather than outside, and he's alive.  We're one of the lucky ones, in that we did not lose our son.  However, because of our experiences with these out of control cops, we tell him every day, than when he finishes college, GET OUT OF THIS COUNTRY.

            I live in a country where it's easier to buy a gun, than to cast a vote.

            by stuckupnorth on Fri Aug 29, 2014 at 11:14:53 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Never fails to amaze me ... (0+ / 0-)

              that some people don't know that. Some cops are just assholes. They're just out to fuck your day up. Sure there are good ones out there, but damned if you know what you're gonna get.

              As a teenager I was always extremely polite with cops. Probably to a fault. Got me fucking nowhere. I'm not rude to cops nowadays, but the lessons been learned.

          •  You have a point (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Maggiemad, jubal8

            We are stereotyping and setting ourselves up for an expectation of behavior on their part.  If that man was sitting in a public place...and we hear nothing to the contrary here and apparently no proof has been offered that he was actually in an employee area...then why does he had to leave?  If his kids are waiting for him to be there then what happens when they show up and dad is in jail?

            I agree that I would have told them my name, but you know, if the guy wasn't doing anything wrong then why was he singled out?  Why was he bothering the employees there if no one else bothered them?  Was he truly in a private employee space?  If so it should be clearly marked as such.  If not, then why aren't they calling police about anyone else?  If it was then he needs to wait elsewhere, and if it wasn't they need to mark it or leave him alone.

            I actually do see what you mean by not escalating, but I sure didn't hear them answering him either as to what he was doing that was wrong.  Yes, I do see stereotyping...without more proof that they really have a reason to ask him to leave we can't really know the whole situation, but if it truly is a place where others are allowed and they don't want just him waiting ten minutes for his kids, then I would say some stereotyping is going on.  If no one is allowed there then he needs to stop waiting there.  

            More info is needed here, but the stereotyping isn't just people thinking all cops are bad and racists.  It's much broader than that and goes both ways.

          •  on being polite (5+ / 0-)

            jubal8:
            You have it exactly backwards. The polite actions first rest with the police. Their approach must be with respect at all times.  If they want a situation difused, they should remain calm and courteous, even cheerful and kind...beginning with not accosting anyone without apparent excellent reasons.  Oh, what am I thinking....that's the way the police were in my town when I was a kid.  Apparently, their training now is pure gestapo and it's very, very ugly.

            •  I know that if I see cops come toward me .. (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Maggiemad, StrayCat, mwm341

              With hands resting on their gun holster or an unpleasant expression I feel intimidated and a bit defensive just out of protective instincts and I am white and didn't do anything.  All I can see is that if I were black and saw them come at me sternly with no indication that they are neutral and just want to talk to me I surely would feel fear since I know that you don't have to be guilty to be arrested.

              I feel fear just thinking of how I might feel if I had black boys...how sad to feel that way about your child just walking to a store or riving home from work.  And how sad to worry if he gets a good job and nice car because you know police very well might think he stole it..sigh.  

              This is about perceptions...we all have them and if cops see everyone or one group as criminals then none of us are safe.  If we see them all as criminals then none of us are safe.  

              •  Yes, none of us is safe. Sad, but true. Until we (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                BvueDem

                grasp this intellectually and emotionally, we will remain unsafe as we go about our lives.

                Patriotism may be the last refuge of scoundrels, but religion is assuredly the first.

                by StrayCat on Fri Aug 29, 2014 at 02:13:48 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

          •  The Supreme Court ruled long ago that we do not (7+ / 0-)

            have to identify ourselves - are not even required to carry ID - when we have done nothing to cause someone to believe a crime has been committed. You are advocating that we give up that right just because it offends cops for us to exercise it. Bullshit. It is about time to reform the police, to remind them that they are there to serve and protect, and that we have rights that they are not supposed to intrude on.
            I live in St. Paul, but because I am white - and polite - I have no particular problem with the police here. Texas and Oakland are another story. I do have long hair and a beard. That is enough to set off some other cops.
            Face it, the country is becoming a police state.

            •  It truly amazes me what people claim I have said (0+ / 0-)

              I have not advocated giving up rights.
              I have not said you must show ID.
              I have not said you must be subservient.
              I have not said Mr. Lollie deserved to be arrested.
              nor said that anyone not being sheep-compliant deserves to be arrested
              I have not said that the sky is green
              Or that politeness will get you lollipops and rainbows.

              OK, nobody claimed that last one... verbatim.

              My δόγμα ate my Σ

              by jubal8 on Fri Aug 29, 2014 at 11:47:27 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

          •  There we go with the idea the Cop is given benefit (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Maggiemad, StrayCat

            of the doubt and deserved to be talked to in a more subservient manner, he or she should be treated with deferment due their position.
            When did this happen? Most of the hate and wrongdoing has been on the part of these hired mercenaries.
            I'm going to start a collage of the real dichotomy here. Photos of police way too dressed  for confrontation and not for dialogue. It's difficult to be heard distinctly when you are wearing a gas mask.
            After a while and with teh beards I witnessed, I know some got a taste of their own.
            Then to stand for hours in the heat, sweating and building up a hate.
            A cop makes a choice to be a cop and we are the ones who define what a cop is.
            There is nothing wrong for this man to be sitting on said bench and other than a shopkeeper feeling the Young Black man was sitting in front of their store, chasing away customers, the cops gave him the "Bum's Rush" and when he didn't comply, they arrested him.
            This man possibly can't vote now, jobs are closed to him and this arrest affected his life in many ways.

            "If you tell the truth, you won't have to remember anything", Mark Twain

            by Cruzankenny on Fri Aug 29, 2014 at 12:35:38 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  Diffusing a Situation (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            StrayCat, jubal8

            Interesting. That is the exact attitude that is taught for diffusing a situation where an agitator or aggressor might turn violent. The technique that follows from that attitude is used to keep criminals from trying to hurt a person.

            Is that really the approach people should take when dealing with any public servant? If a police officer asks for my name, and I'm not under an obligation to provide that information, then when I say, "No, I'm not under an obligation to tell you my name," their response should be, "Yes, of course you are right, my apologies." If they respond by turning hostile, they've just turned into aggressors/criminals/threats. I don't care what color their clothes are.

            For the record, I get how dangerous it is to be a police officer. I know that routine traffic stops are more dangerous than drug raids. Because I know how dangerous and stressful it can be, I generally do my best to make that cop's job as easily as possible because another human being does in fact occupy that uniform.

            But the moment where they try to violate my rights is the moment where I stop extending that courtesy.

            •   the moment where I stop extending that courtesy (0+ / 0-)

              And again, Tyshalle, you offer an insightful (rather than inciteful) comment in response to my intended communication.

              My original comment was basically a suggestion that, at the beginning of any interaction with police, being calm, respectful, forthright and attentive to the officer(s) as they approach and speak with you is more likely to prevent the situation from escalating than if you are being defensive or evasive or belligerent. It was only about doing what one can to set the tone of the conversation, where the opportunity to do that actually exists.

              Of course if their first words are "Get on the ground face down!" or some other command that demands nothing but compliance, that's a different case that I wasn't trying to speak to. Personally I've never been in a situation that stressful and can only speculate about how I would react.

              I did not expect the shitnado that would swirl up around my post, nor was I prepared for that amount of misunderstanding and mischaracterization of my statements from so many people. I know that folks here are angry and calling for action; however, if we as citizens take that anger into every situation where police are involved, it can only make the whole dynamic worsen.

              Anyway, being at the center of this little tempest affected me a lot, so I've been coming back to reread comments and reassess my part in it. I have appreciated reading yours and those of a few others. Thank you.

              My δόγμα ate my Σ

              by jubal8 on Sun Aug 31, 2014 at 01:56:22 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

          •  I suggest that you (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            jubal8

            must walk in the shoes of others before you judge them.  

            Black folks have been living with this forceful and violent behavior for decades, just now these terrible acts are being reported by the media.  

            Our police forces need to have about 10 hours of retraining, on their own time, to learn to protect and serve all of us, not just someone who reports someone sitting on a bench in a public place.  Extreme sensitivity training.

            There a few protocols that need to be rewritten about the police escalating violence in response to very small instances.
            To us it looks like they come to a situation, itching for a squabble.  

            I have come to realize that we can't believe what the cops report/say after they have done the dirty deeds.  

          •  To me (0+ / 0-)

            That sounds like a long winded way of saying "Just lay back and take it and you won't get hurt". I don't think we as citizens should be forced to treat every encounter with the police like we would a sexual assault.

      •  I was stopped... (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Maggiemad, StrayCat

        waiting, outside on the sidewalk, for a bus at the main city bus terminal (I'm a white guy, 60, 5'5", 135, waist-length brown hair and white waist-length beard, southern accent, ball cap, jeans, sandals, t-shirt, black hoodie --- read "hippie") and accused of shoplifting at a store where EVERYONE knows my name (It's a town of 30,000)

        He said I fit the description (male, beard and baseball cap - RIIIIGGGHHHTTT) - Wants ID, where was I, wants to take a picture of me (they enter those into a burgeoning face recognition db) - All the time my bus is boarding

        After telling him to just call the store (one block away) and tell them who I am and ask if it's me they saw (I use a stage name in public and never reveal my legal name unless forced to), I told him "I'm getting on this bus: Arrest me or leave me the fuck alone!"

        He started taking pictures of me but didn't stop me from boarding

        I called the PD when I got home and complained about the incident and the pictures and then called the store to let them know what went on

        Cops: "SOP..."

        Store: "We're SOOOOO sorry - We will call and let them know it wasn't you"

        And I got off WAAAAAYYYY easy (WHITE PRIVILEGE, don'cha know...)

        I'm sure they have those pics in a "special place" for Americans who know their rights, the "troublemakers"

        This fascist police state we have instituted MUST be brought to a swift and final end!

        As our local Alaska Democrats' bumper sticker reads:

        "Enough is Enough!
        Vote Democratic!"

        "When she does it she means to, Moth delivers her message, Unexplained on your collar, Crawling in silence, A simple excuse"

        by Antitheist on Fri Aug 29, 2014 at 01:29:30 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  Agree and Angry too (4+ / 0-)

      These horrid events need to be on the on the news everyday, front page top story till this never happens again.
       Take these police department apart immediately. Completely change training for new officers. Mentally evaluate and ban the bully/thug/bigoted mentality personality.  Destroy the precedent of militarization police.  Stop all search and seizure policy, do not let police keep seized property. Make officers liable in civil court.  Criminal court as needed.  Fund police departments with budgets and that's it!
      This poor man was doing nothing, nothing but being a good parent. He even says to the cops it's going to mess with him job and they arrested him in view of his kids. NO need for the humiliation and harassment.  As for his job the guys right, the arrest goes on his record and now he's in the system.

      This has to stop.  No more lives lost! No more Jim Crow!
      Excuse me I now need to throw up....

      "Life is short, Art long, opportunity fleeting, experience deceptive, judgment difficult". - Hippocrates "Amphorisms"

      by kay3295 on Fri Aug 29, 2014 at 07:43:44 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

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