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  •  The really revolting thing about the DLC (4.00)
    is that it conflates the "center" with being a Petain or a Quisling.

    I'm a "centrist" in that I take positions that are not necessarily all definable as "Left" or "Right" on every issue that comes up.

    Yet I HATE the destruction that Bush has wrought to this country and the world. I see Bush as bringing us the Sovietism that I fought and detested as a Cold Warrior for many years.

    So I am FURIOUS that the Dems have failed to challenge GOPer bullying on any number of issues.

    And I'm a centrist.

    It's the Dishonesty, Stupid!

    by dabize on Fri Jul 22, 2005 at 09:53:29 AM PDT

    •  Exactly... (4.00)
      The DLC is not centrist. The DLC is corporatist.

      I've no problems with centrists or moderates or even conservatives...

      ... but the DLC is to be cut off at the knees.

      Sen. Clinton... have you no shame? Why do you associate yourself with these destructionists?

      "We have the power. Sorry if you don't like the fact that we've decided to use it." Posted by Jeremey*in*MS at February 3, 2005 01:59 PM

      by Andrew C White on Fri Jul 22, 2005 at 10:01:38 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  if you're DLC then you're not with me (4.00)
        The Democrat platform is the one everyone wants in this country

        Higher living wages.
        Honorable retirement.
        Job benefits for health care.
        More money for effective, quality education.

        Ohio has Rep.Conyers challenging the norms of Republican policy.

        Maybe Hillary needs to take notes from him.

        •  so (none)
          tell me how the DLC does NOT want those things...

          Higher living wages.
          Honorable retirement.
          Job benefits for health care.
          More money for effective, quality education.

          •  A wise man once said... (none)
            "Fuck the DLC!"

            Paging Doctor Dean.

            by ABBinMI on Fri Jul 22, 2005 at 10:56:50 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  Because the DLC wants (none)
            what their corporate plutocratic overlords tell them to want.

            "We have the power. Sorry if you don't like the fact that we've decided to use it." Posted by Jeremey*in*MS at February 3, 2005 01:59 PM

            by Andrew C White on Fri Jul 22, 2005 at 11:04:11 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  i believe some of that (none)
              i don't believe all of that.

              i know they're corporatist.  it's not something that earns much respect.

              but it doesn't mean that they still don't want more money for education, for instance.

              i mean, some corporations actually do want more money to go into education so they can hire better quality employees.

              but some don't.

              •  The point is (none)
                that the DLC doesn't have any agenda beyond what their corporate overlords tell them to have.

                And after that I don't care what they have to say... they are the enemy of any good self-respecting Democrat that believes this party and this government and this country belond to We the People of the United States of America.

                Remove the leadership of the DLC and maybe... maybe... we'll see if there is any good in that outfit... but as it stands today they are everybit the enemy of We the People as the Republicans are.

                "We have the power. Sorry if you don't like the fact that we've decided to use it." Posted by Jeremey*in*MS at February 3, 2005 01:59 PM

                by Andrew C White on Fri Jul 22, 2005 at 05:03:32 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

          •  a few examples... (none)
            The Telecom bill of 1996

            the bankruptcy bill

            NAFTA without worker/environmental protections

            social security privatization

            and on and on

      •  She's associates herself... (4.00)
        Because she is one of them.
      •  Exactly (none)

        -- but don't underestimate how many Democrats are on board.  Do you think Hillary is the only one? Believe me - she wouldnt be showing her face unless she had plenty of support - open and covert.

        I am going to say it one more time and keep saying it until progressives get it.  We are not fighting about Democrats and Republicans anymore but something much more subtle and insidious.  The corporate fascism that you rightly point out as the base of the DLC permeates BOTH parties - which is why we have so little meaningful or strong opposition of this administrations policies and also weak advocacy for blue collar, working person issues.  Why do you think Dean and any other reformers get so little vocal support and so much attack?

        We had better soon get wise to the real deal cause time is wasting.  The next election will have two candidates nominally from each party but they will actually be from one root, one point of view unless we upset the apple cart.

        Stop Looking For Leaders - WE are the Leaders!!!

        by SwimmertoFreedom04 on Fri Jul 22, 2005 at 03:57:41 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Believe me... (none)
          I am well aware that the real battle is between We the People and the Plutocrats... of both parties. The DLC is nicely representative of the enemy within the Democratic Party.

          Cut them off at the knees, support Chairman Dean, take seats on our local Democratic Committees, get our people on the state committees, get our own candidates elected to local offices, use our own small donations... in large numbers... to buy the Democratic Party back from the plutocrats and then to buy back our government, as perverse as that is, if that is what we have to do.

          "We have the power. Sorry if you don't like the fact that we've decided to use it." Posted by Jeremey*in*MS at February 3, 2005 01:59 PM

          by Andrew C White on Fri Jul 22, 2005 at 05:11:42 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  They also confuse (4.00)
      partisan with extremist.  They won't stand up for their party, which is the real definition of a partisan.

      If they want to know what Dems believe in, here it is, my reworking of the themes in Matt Bai's NYT magazine article:

      Strong and respected America; Opportunity for all; A secure safety net; Fair taxes; Diversity and community.  Five ideas, 16 words.

      "False language, evil in itself, infects the soul with evil." ----Socrates

      by Mimikatz on Fri Jul 22, 2005 at 10:07:32 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  True centrists versus appeasers (none)
      Kos nails it when he says: "they urge Democrats to chase after a "center" that gets constantly redefined rightward by an ideologically principled Republican party."

      There are two kinds of centrist: the DLC that "takes the average" between two extremes, versus those who still occupy a marked place on the traditional political spectrum (usually more conservative fiscally and liberal socially). I can imagine it would be painful to be thrown in with them, because they basically end up appeasing the right out of expediency. When Dean said the "Democratic wing of the Democratic Party" we know what he meant was the "undemocratic wing".

      •  Some of us are not so predictable (none)
        I am strongly conservationist and progressive on economic and social issues. But I was also quite hawkish about the Cold War and am strictly egalitarian when it comes to gender issues. There are other places where I am libertarian. I am also an atheist.

        The DLC approach is so simpleminded and self-defeating as to be laughable.

        They are also the American Mensheviks - self defined as a minority faction.

        It's the Dishonesty, Stupid!

        by dabize on Fri Jul 22, 2005 at 10:25:13 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  The ever-shrinking wing. (none)
        The wing that still actually stand FOR something.

        Paging Doctor Dean.

        by ABBinMI on Fri Jul 22, 2005 at 11:01:54 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

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