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  •  I take it you support the war (none)
    --the Patriot Act and the current President's tax cuts -

    Are you serious that you would support this woman?

    Stop Looking For Leaders - WE are the Leaders!!!

    by SwimmertoFreedom04 on Fri Jul 22, 2005 at 04:09:12 PM PDT

    [ Parent ]

    •  I'm rather curious (none)
      that more of you dont apply the standards to KERRY that you apply to Hillary. MY candidate was, is, and will be Howard Dean. Supported the war? Kerry DID INDEED support the war, parsing aside. Still does. But people dont want to see that so they disect everything he ever said to find an ounce of elbow room. As for "dividing the country" its DIVIDED. Since when are democratic leaders chosen by "who the wingnuts will be comfortable with".

      Remember: there's no sense in talking to them. Talk to your base first, the middle second, and the amoral and lying right never.

      by cdreid on Sat Jul 23, 2005 at 03:19:52 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I thought that your post above (none)

        -- meant that you supported Hillary...

        I voted for Kerry the last election as many of us did thinking that we could hold our noses and get him across instead of Bush winning.  He was a weak and disappointing candidate.  Of course I held and continue to hold him accountable for his support of the war (Kerry).  I will not however, support Hillary or any other Democrat who supports the war in the NEXT election or vote for anyone again who I don't support in my gut to use some expedient "electability" formula.

        Hillary, in my opinion, is just a horrible choice for a number of reasons,not the least of which is her continued support for this terrible war using the very language that any Bush orc would support.

        Stop Looking For Leaders - WE are the Leaders!!!

        by SwimmertoFreedom04 on Sat Jul 23, 2005 at 09:24:46 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Im with you (none)
          though to lay my cards out i wasnt always antiwar. I always, from day one, knew Bush was lying. But i thought "we have to give him a chance even if he did steal the election". However i thought that there was a small chance that overthrowing Sadam was a good thing on several levels assuming Bush was competant and not as Stunningly corrupt as he has shown himself to be (I think his father gets a bad rap for Reagans evils btw).

          I dont like Hillary Clinton. In fact she turns my stomach. But I believe she would be a better President than her husband was. I dont believe she would tow the DLC line. I dont believe she would put up with Republican nonsense. She doesnt know in fact. And she is popular in places that count. Not just New England. So I could accept her before i could accept another party hack like Kerry, Dukakis or Mondale.

          As to my preferred Government? Al Gore as President, someone like Kweisi Mfume (ya i know) as VP. Howard Dean as the speaker of the house. Hillary Clinton as senate majority leader. Teddy Kennedy  as chairman of any committee he chooses.
          And the Fine congressmen and senators who have reached out to Kossacks as committee chairs.

          What a dream world eh?

          Remember: there's no sense in talking to them. Talk to your base first, the middle second, and the amoral and lying right never.

          by cdreid on Sat Jul 23, 2005 at 06:18:14 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Interesting... (none)

            --Not a bad fantasy government except for Hillary as President.

            Speaking of fantasies, what scenario did you paint about Iraq after Sadam was gone given that we have EXACTLY what the British experienced the FIRST time they tried to FIX Mesopotamia?  And also, Saddam is so much worse than even what WE have now?  He murdered thousands and Bush is building his portfolio.  He tortured or had tortured and Bush?  I'm sure that you can fill that in too.

            I can accept that we had a strategic interest in that area of the world and that we most certainly had to do something about Afghanistan.  But you didn't have to be overly cautious to see that Iraq and its various relationships around the Arab world, could pose a real well, "sand trap" for the US.  And I'm not even touching on the morality of it which I know you also question.

            Here we are almost four years later and billions of treasure and we have an unstable quagmire and breeding ground for thousands of new terrorists.  The billions have done nothing but made Bush's friends wealthier. And oh by the way, we sure have improved Iran's standing in the world - something that I know we certainly didnt want to do but was always warned by those damned experts who again counseled against this war.  

            So - we have an intractable war costing us billions with no end in sight.  It is enriching a small group, has built the strength of a fundamentalist Arab state, we still haven't found Osama, if that matters and WE ARE NO SAFER - in fact we are more at risk.

            So tell me - why should the Democrats support staying in Iraq.  If we were to leave tomorrow, what would happen that is so much worse than what we have now?

            Stop Looking For Leaders - WE are the Leaders!!!

            by SwimmertoFreedom04 on Sun Jul 24, 2005 at 10:20:32 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Correction (none)
              Iran is not Arab - its Persian.  Apologies.

              Stop Looking For Leaders - WE are the Leaders!!!

              by SwimmertoFreedom04 on Sun Jul 24, 2005 at 10:22:22 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  I was hoping we'd overthrow Sadam (none)
              and that legitimate experts on the country would have .. you know.. a Fucking Plan.. for us to turn the government over to the people.  Say an election to decide what form of democracy. Then an election to elect those who would write the constitution. But then you see i actually thought we'd hunt down and kill Bin Ladin and everyone who funded him first. Crazy idea huh? I also we wouldnt be stupid enough to turn that racist animal sharon loose on the Palestinians (i'm pro-isreal btw). Silly me.

              Of course i wasnt in favor of this idiotic war but when our soldiers are sent to kill and die i have to try to put aside my cynicism and hope fort the best

              BTW why are you arguing with me that we should/shouldnt pull out. If it were up to me we'd withdraw TOMORROW. But then halliburton wouldnt be sucking up all that precious oil so that aint gonna happen.

              Remember: there's no sense in talking to them. Talk to your base first, the middle second, and the amoral and lying right never.

              by cdreid on Sun Jul 24, 2005 at 10:27:19 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Thanks for the clarification (none)

                -- I didnt know where you stood but it makes sense from what you were saying before.

                The US is in the middle of one of those crazy puzzles where if you lose, you lose way more than the position that you entered the puzzle with.

                Anyway - I desperately want us to get out of Iraq and will abide no candidate who supports this mess - and that's Hillary, Kerry, Edwards and others.  Clark at least counseled against it and knows we are in one hell of a mess.  I couldnt blame the Democrats for wanting this poisoned vessel to be passed onto someone else because poisoned it IS.  There are NO good choices and our future is very murky - both foreign policy, military and economic-wise.

                As for supporting the troops once they are committed to fight, I feel that the most pro-military thing that I can do is to get them home as soon as possible rather than give lip service to support as they are killed and mangled.  Right now as we speak, they are getting poor benefits, poor pay and no support long term for dealing with the many profoundly disabled through loss of limbs and brain tissue.  My support involves stopping the slaughter for this worthless cause.  As it is, we are talking about the need to support these guys and gals (the disabled) for the rest of their lives if we are to be a humane and responsible nation.

                I want us out YESTERDAY.  There is no purpose or justification (and I know that you agree) in prolonging this one more second.

                Stop Looking For Leaders - WE are the Leaders!!!

                by SwimmertoFreedom04 on Sun Jul 24, 2005 at 10:43:38 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Support our troops is bullshit (4.00)
                  Its pure spin put out by the right wing who avoid service like the bloody plague. The best way to support the troops is to make sure they have the equipment, food, clothing, healthcare they need. To make sure their leaders are honest. To make certain their lives are only spent for a worthy cause. To get them home safe and healthy as soon as possible. And once they are here to live up to our obligations to provide the lifelong medical and mental health care any of them might need. You wont find the gop supporting that. To right wing cowards soldiers are lower class  trash to be used and discarded. Never apologise to scum. And that indeed is what the chickenhawk cowards are.

                  And btw you may not have noticed but there are a whole lot of veteran kossacks. A whole lot of Democratic veteran senators and congressmen. Republicans and freepers? Not so much.

                  Remember: there's no sense in talking to them. Talk to your base first, the middle second, and the amoral and lying right never.

                  by cdreid on Sun Jul 24, 2005 at 12:03:46 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

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