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View Diary: The Plame Floodgates Open (404 comments)

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  •  Yes, but... (4.00)
    can anyone make this stick?

    I just had a conversation with my brother-in-law--a moderately conservative, well-educated, business-man who, despite running a multi-million dollar company and having lots of government contracts, had no idea who Karl Rove was.  

    He kept calling him "Rowe" and asked me what all the fuss was about.  He knew there was a "fuss" because he'd heard Rove's name so many times in the paper, but he didn't have the slightest idea what Rove had done. When I tried to explain the basic points, he shrugged and said it was all just politics, then went back to grilling his steaks.

    That's the response you're going to get from Middle America.  And until you can make Middle America care and know as much about Rove and Plame as they did about Clinton and Monica, there is no case.

    Maybe Rove will go to jail. Maybe Fleisher and Libby will go, too. But Bush will continue on, and Middle America will continue to believe the Prez is basically a decent guy whose being annoyed and hounded by a whole bunch of sour-grape Democrats.

    Public outcry begins with stained dresses, not leaked information.

    •  The Gold Standard for Scandal (3.66)
      is when you're a punchline in the Jay Leno monologue.
    •  I Guess You Didn't Live Through Watergate (none)
      You might be surprised.

      Let's just wait and see...

      This is CLASS WAR, and the other side is winning.

      by Mr X on Fri Jul 22, 2005 at 01:49:06 PM PDT

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      •  Actually, I did... (none)
        live through Watergate, and Iran-Contra, and Whitewater, and Monica-gate, etc., etc. And one of the things I've observed is that Middle America is getting bored with political scandals. So it takes a lot more to get them riled up now than it did in the '70s. They want something "new", something "different".

        So, if you can find the "new" or "different" thing in this scandal, you've got Middle America glued to the hearings. But otherwise, this is just another "government reality show."

        •  And We Had a Press Back Then (3.00)
          80% of Americans caught network TV news each week--and TV news was journalistic.

          Neither is true today.

          We are called to speak for the weak, for the voiceless, for victims of our nation and for those it calls enemy....--ML King, "Beyond Vietnam"

          by Gooserock on Fri Jul 22, 2005 at 02:29:48 PM PDT

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        •  hey, gm... (none)
          Not sure how you define "Middle America," but a big bunch of them voted for Kerry, are now (or have always been) against the war, and think BushCo sets a new standard for evildoing.

          Folks are going to eat this up.  Mmm-Mmmmm!  Couldn't happen to a nicer administration.

          Nunc pede libero pulsanda tellus... (Now is the time to beat the earth with unfettered foot...)

          by a2jean on Fri Jul 22, 2005 at 02:49:41 PM PDT

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          •  By Middle Americans, I mean... (none)
            Americans who don't much like politics, don't follow it a lot, have strong feelings about certain issues, but, for the most part, don't take any active role in politics or keep up to date with the details of what's going on.

            In my brother-in-law's case, it's someone who only glances at the headlines, but reads every word of the sports and business pages.

            "Apathetic Americans" might be more appropriate, but that implies they don't care about any issues. Whereas the truth is, they care--they just don't want to be bothered with all the complicating details.

            •  Opinion leaders (none)

              Long ago, sociologists coined the term "opinion leaders." They meant the local guys whose neighbors trusted them to think about certain kinds of things. Barbers used to be traditional.

              The term got corrupted into meaning newspaper columnists and TV newsreaders. That's not what it meant when the term was coined, and what it pointed to is still around.

              The guy in the drugstore, the chattering manicurist, the retired guy on your block who plays with your kid but reads the newsspaper every day.

              Not everybody is following this story, but they are. Ans not all of them have been turned, but many have. When it comes time to put a yard sign in the yard which always has a yard sign, some people are going to ask: "And what did Cogressman Smith say about Karl Rove?"

              I remember a guy coming by to give me a window sign in my old apartment. "But, look," I said. "My land lord's fir trees have grown so much you can barely see the window."
              "It doesn't matter," I was told. "Some of your neighbors have already asked me why you don't have a sign in your window."

              If GOP representatives keep marching off the cliff for Karl Rove, tehre are going to be some bare lawns and empty windows out in the suburbs. There is already gossip going around, and gossip is deadlier than sound trucks.

        •  The new and different thing ... (4.00)
          is that they burned Brewster-Jennings, doing incalculable damage to our anti-proliferation efforts. Even the relatively apathetic can easily grasp and be outraged by that.
          •  Excellent point! (none)
            Now go out and see how many Middle Americans (and by that I mean Americans who, for the most part, don't much like politics) know anything about Brewster-Jennings.

            This is a side of the story that should be exposed more--especially given how many CIA agents got exposed because of it.

        •  New or different? (none)
          If the last loose thread, Joe-Jeff Gannon-Guckert, could be tied to Karl Rove in some sort of kinky affair, would that be new and different enough?  "Rove got golden showers from fake reporter," or maybe "Rove got HIV from Guckert"?
    •  The basic points? (4.00)
      Perhaps you didn't explain to him the appropriate basic points.

      The "fuss" is about a woman who was a really deep covert spy who pretended she worked for an international consulting firm. She traveled all over the world "consulting", but really finding out secret information and setting up super-secret networks of other spies for the CIA. (By the way, she is very nice looking). Someone at the White House wanted to damage her (also pretty good looking) husband for nefarious purposes of their hidden cabal inside the government. They did it by letting some reporters know that she wasn't really a fairly normal "consultant" - she was actually a CIA agent. The reporters quickly figured out that the "company" she worked for was also a CIA front. When the story broke other agents and their assets all over the world were endangered, and some may even have been killed.

      For middle America this can end up waaay sexier than a blue dress.

      Practice absurdus interruptus - Support ePluribus Media.

      by Catte Nappe on Fri Jul 22, 2005 at 02:00:40 PM PDT

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      •  Oh, I did... (4.00)
        And I respectfully submit that what readers on this site may consider sexy is NOT what the average apolitical American considers sexy.

        Or, to put it another way, most of America is NOT glued to this discussion, however much we think they should be.

        •  The soundbites for my REd State Family: (4.00)
          1. Karl Rove, a top administration official -- third most powerful in the White House --- blew the cover of a CIA agent to get back at her husband, who is a critic of the Iraq war.

          2. He wanted to discredit the husband for filing a report that questioned the White House's arguments for going to war in Iraq in the first place.

          3. The husband, who was a former ambassador, found no evidence that Iraq was trying to buy uranium for nuclear weapons in Africa. His findings completely undercut the White House argument for the war and embarrassed Bush.

          4. The leak was illegal. It is illegal to blow the cover of a covert agent, and it is under investigation by a special prosecutor.

          5.  It is also severely damaging to U.S. national security because the outed CIA agent was a specialist in WMD --- chemical, biological and nuclear weapons. Now she is essentially useless to the CIA --- and so are all the contacts she made over the years.

          6. The White House is stalling and stonewalling in explaining the official's involvement. For two years it denied all knowledge. Two years ago Bush said he would fire anyone involved. Now it has been revealed that Rove, Bush's deputy chief of staff, really wa sinvolved. And now Bush has backpedaled---now he says he'll fire anyone convicted of a crime --- so he has moved the goalposts.

          7. Meanwhile Karl Rove still has security clearance and access to top-secret information. He has already exposed one CIA agent for political reasons---who knows how much more damage he will cause? At the very least, Bush should put him on administrative leave until the investigation is complete. But he refused to do so.

          Television is the opiate of the people.

          by Harpoinhell on Fri Jul 22, 2005 at 02:45:12 PM PDT

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        •  Agreed, (none)
          most of America is NOT into this story like we all are--it has not hit the local TV or newspapers yet. Until it does, people won't really know who Rove is, or care.
          •  Local media (none)

            It may not be in your local media, yet. But it is in the national print media. Time, Newsweek, The New York Times, The fucking Wall Street Journsl.

            From there, it will get to the regional papers. (It already has got to some.) Even if ordinary people don't read those, and more do than you might think, the local newspapermen and TV guys do.

            There has been a lot of bitching about the MSM on dKos. Well, the MSM are on this story. If you care about national news at all, you read, watch, or listen to something which covers this story -- if only to repeat the RNC spin.

      •  Not to mention that all of this was used (none)
        to justify the country going to war under trumped up circumstances.
        •  Yes (4.00)
          Going to War on Trumped up Circumstances, Lying and Deceiving, Fabricating the Cause for War, might be what wakes people up in the long run. It might take a while but it could wake some people up. Connect this with National Security ( the reason some voted for Bush even if they disagreed with him on Domestic policy and other issues and were hurting economically) and make it about WAR. Mention War and National Security since 9-11 and you might just have their attention.

          ie maybe talk more about the connection to National Security and the War rather than just a scandal and some people do take notice.

          Another Day, More Recycled Republican Rubbish-- PA Democratic Committee

          by wishingwell on Fri Jul 22, 2005 at 02:50:35 PM PDT

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      •  ah, the whole (3.50)
        'beautiful spy" and her brave, sexy husband angle.

        Well, whatever it takes, at this point, to get Americans to care that their government is treacherous.

        •  But Gatemouth is right... (none)
          Middle America doesn't think, let alone read past a headline or give thought to what all this really means. Middle America watched the same debates you and I watched and still voted for this jerk. I had a friend tell me she thought Kerry looked silly duckhunting, and another said that she finally decided on Bush because Edwards was a lawyer.

          Great reasons, eh?

          What this story needs is the press -- a headline that grabs and puts it in their faces. I lived through Watergate and this is much worse, really, yet where are we? I'm afraid we're really nowhere at this point. People have to get riled up. They have to realize they NEED to care. And for that, we need the press.

          The one good thing is the press is directly involved in this case, unlike Watergate or even Lewinsky. I think the whole thing is up to them. And to be honest -- I'm not hopeful. I love reading these blogs, these posts, these articles, and I get excited, but I keep thinking they will get out of this somehow with nary a scratch. I believe this because I would have bet my life that 51% of the people in this country were smart enough to know how dangerous and treacherous these people are. Apparently they're not smart enough to know it. That is Middle America -- they know everything about American Idol, but nothing about the lengths this Administration will go to to undermine their own country.

          •  Example Nightly News Hour (none)
            Just watched the news summary and first half of the Jim Lehrer nightly news suck-up.  Karl who?  Valerie who?  Hearings what?  Never mentioned the scandal at all.
          •  I agree with you (none)
            and I wish there was a way to get the American public as interested in being lied into war and having traitors in the White House as they were in Michael Jackson.  Or even Tom Cruise.

            But many didn't care that an election was stolen.  So I'm not sure what it will take.  The right is just so effective at lying, and getting those lies out via their nonstop media echo chamber.

            I watched Ambassador Wilson on "Countdown".  He was articulate, logical, and obviously truthful.  In fact, what he said made a great deal of sense.  It required no ideological leaps of faith, only a reasonable respect for facts and reason.  

            I wish he'd sue Limbaugh (or that his wife would) and the other neo-fascists pumping out their lies.  They are modern day Father Coughlins, using the airwaves to dissemble, disseminate hate, and destroy lives.

            I certainly identify with your scepticism about this story finally waking up the American people about the Bush administration.  I sure hope we're wrong.

    •  I think we need to start a meme (none)
      We need to fill the air with righteous indignation that will hopefully echo back to middle America.  How dare they compromise national security for political gain.  What a bunch of frauds.  And look at how our "war preznit" reacted to it all -- the biggest fraud of all.

      --Anne ** ** ** ** ** ** "Hyena crawls on his belly out. The town is safe again tonight." --jms

      by asskicking annie on Fri Jul 22, 2005 at 02:08:58 PM PDT

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      •  Isn't this already being done? (none)
        What we really need are the right soundbites from the right people. Get some of the "upright" Republicans to call Rove and the others out on this, and then maybe we'll get some cross-party outrage going on.
      •  It may be Ted Rall (4.00)
        but he has a good meme ( ? ) or whatever this is :

        Republicans Must Choose: Bush or America?  
        by Ted Rall July 20, 2005

        < snip >

        . . . We already know that Rove is a traitor. So, probably, is Cheney. Since George W. Bush has protected traitors for at least two years; he is therefore an accomplice to the Rove-Libby cell. We are long past the point where, during the summer of 1974, GOP senators led by Barry Goldwater told Richard Nixon that he had to resign. So why aren't Turd Blossom and his compadres out of office and awaiting trial?

        Democrats are out of power. And, sadly, Republicans have become so obsessed with personal loyalty that they've forgotten that their first duty is to country, not party or friend. Unless they wake up soon and dump Bush, Republicans could be permanently discredited.

        < snip >

        Full Text

    •  Here's How I Explain It (4.00)
      Ever since September 11, I pass through airport-like security to get to my desk. There are bomb sniffing dogs at my downtown commuter station and just recently placed at my suburban station--3 blocks from my home where I thought I kept my children safe from terrorism. Valerie Plame's job was, in part, to take nuclear material off the black market. Prusumably to prevent an unthinkable terrorist attack from occuring. By exposing her, Rove and his cabal, exposed everyone in her network. Our security has been compromised as a result. Rove put party before country. How dare he play politics with our lives.
      •  Consider the sickening irony: (none)
        The Bush administration invades Iraq under phony pretenses in order to save us from a non-existent WMD program.

        Meanwhile, in order to block disclosure of their lies about Iraq's supposed WMDs, the Bush people actually make us more vulnerable to WMDs by outing a CIA agent and her network that was focused on containing WMDs!

        ownership society - you are on your own

        by Sam I Am on Fri Jul 22, 2005 at 06:03:27 PM PDT

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