Skip to main content

View Diary: Case for Adding TANG Forgeries to Fitzgerald's Brief (101 comments)

Comment Preferences

  •  wow (none)
    First of all I didn't even know that people here were admitting the docs were forgeries.  last I heard Hunter was still saying that he thought they were authentic.

    Second of all the secretary never "swore she typed those memos".  She said that they were consistent with memos that she typed and that they were consistent with what she remembered people saying at the time. But never once did she ever say that she remembered typing those memos in particular.

    •  That's not correct, here is the transcript. (4.00)
      Last night 60 Minutes aired a follow up report, this time interviewing Lt. Colonel Killian's longtime secretary, Marian Knox. She says that while she believes the memos are not authentic, the thoughts expressed in them are.

      DAN RATHER, 60 Minutes (9/15): So with these memos, you know that you didn't type them.

      MARIAN KNOX, 60 Minutes: I know that I didn't type them; however, the information in those is correct.

      DAN RATHER, 60 Minutes: Few, if any, things that I ask you about will be more important than this point: you say you didn't type these memos, definitely you didn't type these memos.

      MARIAN KNOX, 60 Minutes: Not these particular ones.

      DAN RATHER, 60 Minutes: Did you type ones like this?

      MARIAN KNOX, 60 Minutes: Yes.

      DAN RATHER, 60 Minutes: Containing the same or identical information?

      MARIAN KNOX, 60 Minutes: The same information, yes

      Later on in the DMN follow-ups Knox said she would testify in court if asked that the Lillian docs were incorrect copies of the actual memos she typed in 72 1nd 73.

      Glad to clear this important point up.  Knox is an eyewitness to the fact that these are forgeries.  With all the other evidence, you don't need much more.

      Here is the DMN article (linked above)

      HOUSTON - The former secretary for the Texas Air National Guard officer who supposedly wrote memos critical of President Bush's Guard service said Tuesday that the documents are fake but that they reflect documents that once existed.

      Marian Carr Knox, who worked from 1957 to 1979 at Ellington Air Force Base in Houston, said that she prided herself on meticulous typing and that the memos first disclosed by CBS News last week were not her work.

      "These are not real," she told The Dallas Morning News after examining copies of the disputed memos for the first time. "They're not what I typed, and I would have typed them for him."

      Mrs. Knox, 86, who spoke with precise recollection about dates, people and events, said, "I remember very vividly when Bush was there and all the yak-yak that was going on about it."

      Mrs. Knox said signs of forgery abound in the four memos.

      She said the typeface on the documents did not match either of the two typewriters that she used during her time with the Guard. She identified those machines as a mechanical Olympia typewriter and the IBM Selectric that replaced it in the early 1970s.

      She spoke fondly of the Olympia, which she said had a key with the "th" superscript character that has been the focus of much debate in the CBS memos.

      Beyond that issue, experts have said that the Selectric and mechanical typewriters such as the Olympia could not produce the proportional spacing found in the disputed documents.

      Mrs. Knox said she was sure the documents were not direct transcriptions because the language and terminology did not match what Col. Killian would have used.

      For instance, she said, the use of the words "billets" and a reference to the "administrative officer" of Mr. Bush's squadron reflect Army terminology rather than that of the Air National Guard. Some news reports attribute the CBS reports to a former Army National Guard officer who has a long-standing dispute with the Guard and who has previously maintained that the president's record was sanitized.

      Mrs. Knox also cited stylistic differences in the form of the notes, such as the signature on the right side of the document, rather than the left, where she would have put it.

      Mrs. Knox said she did all of Col. Killian's typing, including memos for a personal "cover his back" file he kept in a locked drawer of his desk.

      She said that the culture of the time was that men didn't type office-related documents, and she expressed doubt that Col. Killian would have typed the memos. She said she would typically type his memos from his handwritten notes, which she would then destroy.

      She said that although she did not recall typing the memos reported by CBS News, they accurately reflect the viewpoints of Col. Killian and documents that would have been in the personal file. Also, she said she didn't know whether the CBS documents corresponded memo for memo with that file.

      "The information in here was correct, but it was picked up from the real ones," she said. "I probably typed the information and somebody picked up the information some way or another."

      Mrs. Knox said that she didn't recall typing a Killian memo alleging that a commander, Col. Walter "Buck" Staudt, was pressuring officers to "sugar coat" Mr. Bush's record. But, she said, such a portrayal of Col. Staudt was consistent with his character and Col. Killian's opinion of his superior officer.

      The News' report last week found that Col. Staudt's discharge papers show that he retired 18 months before the "sugar coat" memo was supposedly written. Mrs. Knox said there's no way Col. Staudt could have exerted that influence after he retired.

      The memos also assert that Mr. Bush failed to take a flight physical and did not meet military standards. She said that missing the physical would have itself been a violation of standards, so there were not separate issues concerning Mr. Bush.

      Mrs. Knox, who left the Guard before Col. Killian died, said she was not sure what happened to his personal files when he died while serving at Ellington. But, she said, it would have been logical that a master sergeant who worked in the squadron headquarters would have destroyed any such nonofficial documents after Col. Killian's death.

      That man, reached Tuesday, declined to comment. "I don't know anything about the matter," he said.

      Speaking to a group of National Guard officers Tuesday in Las Vegas, Mr. Bush said he was proud of his service. He did not mention the questions about his record.

      On Monday, first lady Laura Bush said she thought the memos were probably forgeries, becoming the first person from the White House to assert that. Press secretary Scott McClellan said Tuesday that the administration is not investigating whether the documents are real but looks forward to the results of inquiries by other news organizations.


      •  So the Staudt memo was a complete and (none)
        total forgery.  Hmm...  Memos, memos, where have I heard that word memos?

        Oh yes the INR memo could bring down the White House--that's where I heard the word memo...

      •  I have been under the impression (none)
        that the machine the 60 Minutes' TANG memos were produced on was not even invented yet when the original memos were typed by Knox.  Does this info indicate that the original memos could have been produced by same method as 60 Minutes' document?  Were there other secretaries in the TANG office or did a temporary secretary ever work in that office?  

        This is not nearly as straight forward as I had believed it was.

        •  Knox said she would have typed any (none)
          of Killian's personal memos, whoch those were.  CYA personal files memos--that GW Bush never saw.

          So there would be no other secretary involved with the memos.

          I know this is confusing but the facts are that Knox typed the memos on a manual Olympia typewriter in 1972 and 1973.  That's how she knew right away they were different from her typing.

          There were Selectrics (which the forgeries were typed on) around the Army and TANG at that time but Knox did not have one.  Rove and Bartlett used a Selectric instead of manual to help prove the Killian forgeries a fraud.  Then they also typed up a completely phony Staudt memo on the Selectric as well as adding other small mistakes.

          The sharp Mrs. Knox identified all the deliberate mistakes in the DMN on Sept.15, 2004.

          So Rove and Bartlett deliberate and knowingly added mistakes into the memos and the Staudt memo just for good measure so they could have flunkies like MacDougald debunk them later.

          •  Thanks, this really is confusing. (none)
            I have to admit that Rove really is an evil genius.

            I just hope I am as sharp as Ms. Knox is when I am her age.  I trust she is in good health.

Subscribe or Donate to support Daily Kos.

Click here for the mobile view of the site