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View Diary: New AP Poll: Iraq War Support 37%, Support for Dissent 87% (260 comments)

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  •  I think that rather than concern in the altruistic (none)
    way, about the war like concern for what we are doing to Iraq, the number of Iraqis killed, the actual number of Americans being killed and wounded, etc.,people are turning against it because in the back of their minds, they are fearful that there will be a draft and it will actually enter their personal lives for the first time in a big way.
    •  I think there is also (4.00)
      a direct relationship between the percentage answering yes to the last question and the realization that this war has real costs attached to it.

      Sell your cleverness; buy bewilderment.

      by lapin on Fri Aug 26, 2005 at 08:33:34 AM PDT

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    •  well, their fears about a draft, I think are (none)
      largely unfounded.

      The Regime already has a strategy here: I call it "outsourcing citizenship", based on a recent NYT article
      "Swift Road for U.S. Citizen Soldiers Already Fighting in Iraq" (august 9, 05)

      "Since last year, teams of immigration officers have been jetting to military bases around the world to do interviews and carry out naturalization ceremonies.

      20,000 military service members who have become American citizens since July 2002, many of whom applied under a fast-track process approved by President Bush in 2003 and enacted in October 2004. Under the new rules, people in the military can become citizens without paying the customary $320 application fee or having to be in the United States for an interview with immigration officials and naturalization proceedings.

      The president also made thousands of service members immediately eligible for citizenship by not requiring them to meet a minimum residency threshold, as civilians applying to be citizens must do, although they must still be legal residents of the United States.

      [snip]

      The new citizenship laws have offered a powerful tool to recruiters at a time when the military is struggling to meet its monthly enlistment quotas. The armed forces now have at least 27,000 members who do not have United States citizenship."

      These are the "jobs" Bush is referring to when he  says

      "some of the jobs being generated in America's growing economy are jobs American citizens are not filling. Yet these jobs represent a tremendous opportunity for workers from abroad who want to work and fulfill their duties as a husband or a wife, a son or a daughter." (Shrub, 2004)

      •  Illegal Aliens Next? n/t (none)
        •  Rember Starship Troopers? (none)
          Service brings Citizenship.

          "I abhor war and view it as the greatest scourge of mankind." --Thomas Jefferson to Elbridge Gerry, 1797.

          by Heartcutter on Fri Aug 26, 2005 at 09:31:35 AM PDT

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          •  BRILLIANT! (none)
            I'm so glad you referred to that great movie. One of the great left-wing polemics you're going to find in the popular arts, and cultural snobbery or misinformation prevents the people who would most enjoy it from seeing it.

            I saw it a second time recently, after 9-11, and was amazed at all the parallels.

            •  Too bad (none)
              the acting blew.

              Loyalty to the country always. Loyalty to the government when it deserves it. -- Mark Twain

              by GTPinNJ on Fri Aug 26, 2005 at 09:58:01 AM PDT

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              •  Dude, it was all about Dina Meyers (none)
                Dizzy Flores.  She was the hotness.  

                Ratcheck.  He was the badassness.

                Doogie Howser.  He was the gothness.

                Rico and Carmen.  Meh, not so much.

                "I abhor war and view it as the greatest scourge of mankind." --Thomas Jefferson to Elbridge Gerry, 1797.

                by Heartcutter on Fri Aug 26, 2005 at 10:03:05 AM PDT

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            •  Gotta Disagree with you... (none)
              True, the movie tries -- I'm not sure it succeeds -- in undermining the rightwing ideology of the (far, far better) Robert Heinlein novel it was adapted from. But, unless I'm forgetting something, the result is just sort of nihilistic, not left wing in any coherent way.

              And, yeah, the acting sucked, though that was sort of on purpose, but in this case it was no excuse. If you're looking for snarky political commentary Voerhoeven's "Robocop" is a milliion times better. It's politics, however, are sort of have my cake and eat it too combination of law-and-order conservatism and leftish satire on modern day business.

              "The days of me not taking you seriously are certainly coming to a middle."

              by LABobsterofAnaheim on Fri Aug 26, 2005 at 10:51:01 AM PDT

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            •  Left wing? (none)
              I guess since I read the book and did not see the movie I find the idea of Starship Troopers being left-wing as laughable to the extreme.

              Starship Troopers (the novel) is essentially advocacy for the "strict father" form of parenting and government. While I can agree with parts of it (the military itself was a meritocracy, for one thing, and service was required for Citizenship) there was just too much authoritarianism for me to be comfortable with it.

              Not to say I didn't enjoy reading the book. I did. There's a reason why it's a classic of science fiction. However, I wouldn't want to live in a society patterned that way.

              Hopelessly pedantic since 1963.

              by admiralh on Fri Aug 26, 2005 at 11:10:37 AM PDT

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              •  Marine Command College Reading List (none)
                I have a friend who is a retired Marine Lt. Colonel.

                During a discussion about "why is the military so pro-Republican," I ended up recommending this book to him.  He said he had already read it, because it was on the required reading list for the USMC Command College.

                (BTW, he liked the book.  And he's a hard-core Republican.)

              •  That's why the movie is great. (none)

                The movie is fantastically fun because it takes them right-wing bullshit and amps it up to the point that it turns into parody. The scary thing is that a lot of people I've watched it with don't even recognize the fact that it's parody, and see it as a typical kill-em-all Rambo-style action movie.
                •  i know... (none)
                  i felt like i was on crazy pills when i walked out the movie (the first of 5 (five) times i saw it in the theater, by far the most i've ever done) and no one else got the joke.  i was blown away and laughed like crazy.  that scene where the mother is stepping on the cockroaches and hysterically laughing, while the soudtrack intones "See, these people are doing their part."  man that's good stuff.
                •  I don't know that Heinlein (none)
                  Was really that right-wing. His "future history" has America becoming a right-wing religious dictatorship, the society in Starship Troopers is created by the soldiers as a reaction to this. I think the theory was that so many people don't vote because they aren't really participating. By making your vote cost something, you value it more and actually think about it. None of this is compulsory, it's just that rights come with a price.
                  I think the reason the movie doesn't turn into as big a joke as some other Verhoven projects is that Heinlein was such a brilliant writer, you can't tell if he's advocating or warning or both...
            •  Great Book - Lame Movie n/t (none)
          •  Why not? The Romans did it too... n/t (none)

            "History repeats itself, first as tragedy, second as farce." -Karl Marx

            by Lainie on Fri Aug 26, 2005 at 09:58:06 AM PDT

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          •  Any Vonnegut fans? (none)
            Sirens of Titan, Cats Craddle, Slaughter House Five to name a few.  Great mix of sci fi, political commentary and just flat out weirdness/wackyness.  
        •  It's not like we haven't done it before (none)
          I can totally see the Bush admin using this as a way to naturalize Illegal immigrants.  

          It's win/win as far as they're concerned as they get recruits to fight their war, and a way to "legalize" all the cheap labor after they're done with them.

          •  it's more insidious than that even (none)
            note in the NYT article the pts about waiving residency requirements for this.

            I also recall a NYT article about them recruiting in 3rd Wrld countries--unfortunately lost track of that.

            My sense is that they are actually going into these places and recruiting immigrants from 3rd World countries, many of whom would be more than willing to risk death for a few hundred bucks and a shot at the "american dream"--

            So it's not just about "taking care" of illegal aliens here--they have a whole world full of starving third worlders who'd be happy to take care of the draft issue for them.

            What a nightmare. Can someone wake me up when it's over.

      •  that is one source but it won't be enough. (none)
        and the romans tried the same thing. it didn't work out too well for them as i recall.
    •  Yeah, (none)
      the neanderthalcon spin regarding the (at least American) casualties is that 1900 is much, much, much less than Vietnam, let alone the World Wars.

      I think even that misses the gratuitous casualties of innocent Iraq civilians, although that's been "justified" by saying that radical Islam has infected the general population of Iraq civilians.

      As for the 87%-12%, given that there is (technically) free speech in this country did you honestly expect anything different?  It is just another case where those numbers wouldn't be reflected in an anonymous election, though, like with gay marriage.

      "But the people of America have spoken, and they're saying they want four more years of Douchebag!!" -Family Guy Movie

      by BlueEngineerInOhio on Fri Aug 26, 2005 at 09:16:39 AM PDT

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    •  Much of it is altruistic (4.00)
      Despite what the Randroids claim, altruism is widespread and deep. I have no fear of a draft, yet I nonetheless am going to Crawford this afternoon because I believe it is the right thing to do. I oppose unjustly raining death upon other people whether or not I personally will suffer any consequences from it or not.

      Libertarianism is like communism: both look great on paper.

      by JamesC on Fri Aug 26, 2005 at 09:20:02 AM PDT

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