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View Diary: Pat Tillman, GOP hero, OPPOSED the War (234 comments)

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  •  Uh, no. (4.00)
    Does it matter that none of the 9/11 hijackers were from Afghanistan or Iraq?

    Yes, it matters in Afghanistan. The government of Afghanistan was harboring these individuals, and knowingly allowing them to train and plan terrorist acts on their territory, including 9/11. This makes them complicit.

    The fact that many of the hijackers were from Saudi Arabia does not matter. Just because you are from America does that make the government responsible for some idiotic thing that you might decide to do overseas? Of course not. You can blame the society in which such people could be bred and raised, but not you would not attack a country because of their society alone.

    Does it matter that Bin Laden was never found in Afghanistan?

    Yeah, because he got away. The real question is why can't Musharaf get him into custody? What do the tribal leaders gain by harboring him?

    Does it matter that the sources aiming to equate the Taliban with Al Qaeda are largely the same sources that described Iraq as a threat?

    Yes, it does. I answered this in Question 1.

    That said, the Bush Administration are scum for developing and perpetuating lies against Tillman for propaganda.

    •  This should have been treated as a police action (4.00)
      and care taken to extradite him (by force if necessary) while causing the least physical harm to an already ravaged Afganistan and its peoples.

      What ever happened to Diplomacy? Our success was practically guaranteed. The Afghanistan couldn't have stood up to the entire world.

      "If we have the courage to decide for peace, we will have peace." Albert Einstein

      by coconutjones on Mon Sep 26, 2005 at 12:04:54 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  The Taliban was already (4.00)
        standing up to the entire world.  They were an unrecognized government.  How do you diplomatically pressure a government without diplomats exactly?  Was it assured that the Taliban could have served him up on a platter?  Isn't terrorism about way more than one man?  I think it's a noble idea, and I wish that it were as easy as that, but I'm not sure it is.  

        Arrogance and stupidity: it's a winning combination.

        by MatthewBrown on Mon Sep 26, 2005 at 04:10:04 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Exactly (4.00)
          standing up to the entire world.  They were an unrecognized government.  How do you diplomatically pressure a government without diplomats exactly?

          I would also point out that in spring 2001, the Taliban were wholly unreceptive to international diplomatic pressure to save the Bamian Buddhas in Hazarajat -- and this on an issue far less important to their vital interests than sheltering the jihadists.

    •  So why don't you care that Carter and Reagan (4.00)
      between them fomented war in Afghanistan, made the mujahdeen, and abandoned Afghanistan to the inevitable resulting civil war, after having destroyed them so we could give Russia their own Vietnam, lying to them and breaking our promises - and then punishing them for our broken promises with the occasional bomb run under the "good" Clintons, who likewise tortured and killed Iraqis at the same time - even as we made secret deals with the Taliban for energy - all the while the American People permitted or endorsed this by default.

      Why aren't you interested in going after the people who started 9/11?

      Because they're us, that's why.

      The problem with America is that we do not believe in Justice, because if we did we would hold ourselves to the standards we hold others to, and we never have and never will. Genocide? That's something other people do. The Indians were too long ago to matter, shutupshutupshutup. Slave labour? That's all in the past. Reparations for slave labor? Only Nazis have to pay those, we're the Good GuysTM

      And that is why, because we never do Truth, we never attain Reconciliation at home, and never will, and why future generations will boggle at our perfect hypocrisy in proclaiming ourselves the champions of liberty and justice as we enslaved the world to provide us with cheap gas and coffee and clothes...

      "Don't be a janitor on the Death Star!" - Grey Lady Bast (change @ for AT to email)

      by bellatrys on Mon Sep 26, 2005 at 05:35:21 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Oh, a lot of us are interested in root causes... (none)
        ...we just want to make sure that people don't get too tin-foil-ish about this.

        For one thing:  Bush and his people are all a bunch of inherited-money trustafarians who've never really had to actually work at anything in their lives, either physically or mentally.  We're talking about people who don't even bother to shut the doors behind them as they leave their homes, because they know the maids will take care of that for them.

        Their thinking skills, aside from the sort of low cunning usually associated with fraternity pranks, actually are not that hot.  Because of this, they have abandoned any scruples they may have possessed in vestigial form, and use unethical behavior as a means of compensating for being so dim.

        Their grandfathers and fathers greased their paths for them, mostly by buying up the media and by making sure that no meaningful election reform ever happens.  

        Without election reform -- and by this I mean public financing of elections -- the cost of campaigns keeps spiraling upwards, which led to the Democrats' being forced in the 1970s to go hit on the same corporate-money sources as what funded the GOP.  And that led to the DLC/Blue Dog ascendancy.  (That, my friends, is why Howard Dean scares the crap out of the corporate DINOs:  He's shown that it's possible to get large sums of cash without having to sell out to Corporate America to do so.)

      •  Blah Blah blah. (none)
        So what's your point? Do you want to travel back in a time machine and change the future, or do you want to simply rant endlessly about how bad we are and what horrible things we did in the past?

        What we should be thinking about is dealing with the realities of today, including our policies, and developing near-term, and long-term goals so that things like 9/11 don't happen in the future. And yes, that includes cleaning up the dangerous mess we left in Afghanistan.

    •  What's missing from this discussion... (none)
      ..is OBL's well-documented ties to the Pakistani intelligence agency, the ISI.  There's every reason to believe that those ties still exist.  And of course, we know that he also at one time served the purposes of the CIA as well.  Now they can't find him.  

      It doesn't pass the smell test.

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