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  •  The dilemma (none)
    Armondo wrote ... "Iraq does not need empty gestures - it needs a plan for stabilizing, securing and reconstructing the country."

    Who makes the plan, and with what authority?

    If there is no legally constituted body elected by the Iraqi people, and no legal framework such as a Constitution approved by the Iraqi people, then the only entity that can make a plan for stabilizing, securing, and restructuring the country, and then hope to implement it, is the occupying military authority. So, in essence, you are arguing for the United States to impose a plan without even a lip-service involvement of the Iraqi people. I'm not defending the inept way that the Bush administration has gone about things in Iraq, but some effort to allow an elected voice for the Iraqi people and to create a set of rules under which to begin to operate the nation does seem reasonable. Or, have I missed something in your reasoning?

    •  Say what? (4.00)
      And what happened in January  pray tell?

      You will repeat this BS in 6 months I am sure.

      The point is that the occupying power - an occupation I strenuously objected to through my opposition to this disastrous war - had to set the conditions for nation building - not rush willy nilly to empty electoral gestures.

      You see, the problem is the ILLEGITIMACY of the process as perceived by the Sunni.

      To pretend, as you do, that this process gains legitimacy in THEIR eyes is precisely the follishness I object to.

      There is NOTHING different today than there was yesterday.

      This is a sham. And will lead to nothing good.  

      The SCOTUS is Extraordinary.

      by Armando on Sat Oct 15, 2005 at 12:50:19 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Maybe ... (none)
        ... but your "solution" has no teeth because all it does is bellyache about the status quo. It doesn't say how you would get from point A (illegitimate occupation) to point B (stable nation that can insure basic civil rights of all of its citizens). At this point, bellyaching is about as useless as what has already gone on in Iraq, and it won't save a single life or create a better life for Americans or Iraqis? Anyone can find plenty of reasons to bellyache about the Iraqi mistake. So, instead of more bellyaching, tell us the details of that plan for stabilizing, securing, and reconstructing Iraq that you say is needed? If you, or anyone else, can do that, then perhaps we will begin to see some light at the end of this horrible tunnel.
        •  How to solve this? (none)
          Gawd only knows. But that does notpreclude me from being realistic that this Constitution is not helpful.

          Indeed, it is harmful in my view.

          And you seem to object to my expressing that view.

          I am not sure there is a solution.

          I am sure this is NOT the solution.

          The SCOTUS is Extraordinary.

          by Armando on Sat Oct 15, 2005 at 01:07:01 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  No, I just disagree (none)
            I don't mind you expressing a view against the Iraqi Constitution. I just disagree with your view. I did not support the war, and I think the occupation has been managed in the most inept way possible. Nevertheless, I think the Iraqi Constitution and elections are good steps. Even though both are flawed, they do give the Iraqi people something to focus on, and, possibly, to focus on with the idea of improving them to make them meaningful. Even we had to go back to the drawing board and add a Bill of Rights to our initial Constitution, and we have been trying to perfect it ever since.
            •  Yeah, except they aren't focusing on it (none)
              They're just trying to survive.

              Look, I'm all for hope where there's reason for hope.  But you're asking the Iraqi people to place hope in an illusion.

              Today's vote is damned-if-they-do, damned-if-they-don't.  All it will settle is which side feels more triumphant, and which side is more pissed off.

              And the end of the fight is a tombstone white with the name of the late deceased, And the epitaph drear: "A Fool lies here who tried to hustle the East." --K

              by RT on Sat Oct 15, 2005 at 03:02:48 PM PDT

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            •  Sunni focus (none)
              is my point.

              What do yu think will result from their focus on this?

              The SCOTUS is Extraordinary.

              by Armando on Sat Oct 15, 2005 at 03:31:50 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

        •  You Are Being Completely Unfair (none)
          here by asking for a rundown of the specific elements involved in moving from point A to point B. That's not the way it works.

          Rather you have to simply appreciate the intricacies of the complaints about how the Iraqi election and constitutional referendum, because both fell short of Jeffersonian ideals, should be dismissed out of hand.  

          Not only that but since the Shias and the Kurds in the process made the Sunnis feel unappreciated, especially after the good time and trouble the Sunnis took over the past 60 years to make Iraq a beacon for freedom, the whole exercise should be dismissed. Out of hand.

          See. That's how it works.

        •  It is more like (none)
          how to we get from point A to point Z. I suspect the path to stable Iraq winds it way through a Civil War or two and a whole lot more bloodshed and we might get there by 2010.  Unfortunately, while we may have stability - Iraq will be controlled by a Saddam-like dictator with very close ties to Iran.  A free and democratic Iraq, if we are lucky, maybe by 2050...probably closer to 2100.  Not that BushCo really cares, as don't forget, Jesus is coming back real soon now, ya hear.

          Moral of this story, don't hold your breath.

      •  Nothing is different today (none)
        which is exactly what I said in my diary which Armando seemed to object to.

        There are two things happening here: the plan and the policy.  The individuals implementing the plan are incompetent, though they are meeting some deadlines, but I think that is the wrong battle to fight.  The overall neo-con policy is what we should talking about.  No one is asking, "What happens if everything Bush wanted to happens, happens in Iraq, but nothing changes?"  At home and in Iraq it is the policy we should be talking about, not just the individuals. IMHO.

        •  My objection was to your (none)
          characterization of our response to Iraq.

          You created a straw man.

          The SCOTUS is Extraordinary.

          by Armando on Sat Oct 15, 2005 at 03:30:35 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  which was? (none)
            What was my characterization?  I'm confused.
            •  That we view Iraq (none)
              without regard to pther Bush failings.

              Franlly, your diary did ot make much sense to me so I am heistant to characterize it other than saying we were onyl saying Bush is BAd on Iraq.

              And that this was Bush's plan to perfection or some such. It made not real sense to me.

              The SCOTUS is Extraordinary.

              by Armando on Sat Oct 15, 2005 at 07:46:26 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

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