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View Diary: Was Bush KICKED OUT of Guard? (144 comments)

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  •  I don't know... (none)
    I think this is barking up the wrong tree... I think it's been pretty undisputed that bush got an honorable discharge.  Likely, the grounds for his discharge were at least permissive (if not mandatory) in conferring honorable discharge status.

    So no matter what, Bush can still spin it as an honorable discharge, while you spin it as "kicked out"

    I'm not saying this isn't a useful inquiry... because who knows... but I just don't see this being spinable against bush given his honorable discharge status...

    •  Honorable? (none)
      Well, you can be honorably discharged and still involuntarily separated.  It's still an honorable discharged, but it's still less honorable than an honorable volunatary separation.
      •  Perhaps... (none)
        But I don't think that kind of parsing is going to be particularly convincing to Joe Voter.

        You:  Yes. It's honorable... but it's not HONORABLE honorable.

        Bush:  It was honorable.  Who cares?

        Joe Voter:  This is a big deal... why?

        I'm not saying you're wrong... I'm just saying that this argument doesn't look, at least right now, like it's going to have much punch to it.

        •  Yeah... (none)
          I think you're probably right about the effect on the average voter, but I think it could have some effect on veterans, and that's a group that usually goes Republican.  I was hanging out at the local American Legion, and the whole Bush AWOL story was definitely turning them off of Bush.
        •  Joe Voter (none)
          This all happened 30 years ago, so Joe Voter could dismiss it anyway so matter how honorable the honorable discharge was.

          The issue isn't really what happened 30 years ago, but whether Bush is covering up what happened.  Because if so, that makes his credibility questionable to Joe Voter.

          •  People are not so stupid. (none)
            This all happened 30 years ago, so Joe Voter could dismiss it anyway so matter how honorable the honorable discharge was.

            People won't forget his heroical deeds as fearless leeder Flight Suit Boy.

            Hoist by his own petard as they say...

            You don't need to be a rocket scientist to see that these guys have lied and lied and lied. I've said all along that people resent being lied to, and they don't easily forgive. Many did not want to believe that their president would lie to them and gave some slack but when the evidence smacks them in the face they have no choice.

          •  I disagree (none)
            To veterans this matters a hell of a lot. The south provides an inordinate percentage of service to the military and it definitely matters. If it really sticks (finally) you can expect even a percentage of hardcore republicans to refuse to vote for bush imho.

            and to those who somehow think this is a new  story or that very few knew the facts were out there in 2000 and the condems refused to mention it. And the press then , just as now, is simply not interested in publishing anything critical of republicans.

        •  That's not all (none)
          This isn't going to be convincing if this is all that there is. But we full well know that there's a whole lot more where that came from (Arbusto, Spectrum 7, Harken, Texas Rangers ballpark land condemnation, etc., etc., all the way up to the present day). The ANG alone isn't a big issue, but it's part of a pattern. We know full well about it, but Joe Voter didn't hear about much of any of this the first time around.
        •  "Honorable" discharges (none)
          The National Guard has a long history of handing out "honorable" discharges that aren't. One of my former friends was called up for duty in '91 to serve in Saudi Arabia (he was trained as a tank mechanic). He refused to report for duty, saying he'd signed up for college money, not to fight for Exxon (his words, not mine). The official term for this is "mutiny", and it's a hanging offense (literally). He got frogmarched off by a couple of MP's, restricted to barracks for two weeks, then discharged with an honorable discharge with for bogus "medical" reasons because having one of his men mutiny would have looked bad on his CO's record.

          There was, of course, nothing honorable about either my former friend's conduct nor his discharge. But he gets to say he was honorably discharged anyhow.

          If outright mutiny can get an honorable discharge from the NG in '91, somehow I think an honorable discharge from the NG isn't exactly a badge of good conduct...

          The Attorney General speaks:

          by badtux on Sun Feb 15, 2004 at 06:39:04 AM PST

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      •  discharge (none)
        I might be mistaken but I believe that the type of discharge given for involuntary separation depends on the reason for separation. Someone who can't pass their PT test gets an honorable discharge, but someone who is "unfit for active duty" (insubordination, dereliction of duty, etc.) gets a general discharge with honorable conditions, at best. Otherwise, the type of discharge given must be entirely based on the discretion of the soldier's company/battalion. In that case, anyone can get an honorable discharge.  

        A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored by little statesmen and philosophers and divines. -Emerson

        by fitzov rules on Sun Feb 15, 2004 at 12:32:05 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Look at who he was (none)
          A general discharge for a Congressman's son?

          At ROTC summer training unit, my unit had the son of a four star general. The last day he came in to the barracks late, drunk, and swung on the duty officer.
          I would have been discharged, but the next day this guy was having his bars pinned on by his four star Daddy.

          He probably was discharged for being drubk and AWOL, but they cleaned it up because of Political Influence.

          •  I get it (none)
            We all know that there is such a thing as non-meritorious service, but I was talking about UCMJ. If it's all up to some officer than the whole paper trail ends with him. All he would have to do is say, "I thought he deserved an honorable discharge."

            A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored by little statesmen and philosophers and divines. -Emerson

            by fitzov rules on Sun Feb 15, 2004 at 09:50:37 PM PST

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    •  Bigger Issue (none)
      This might be important if Bush would have lost his deferment to the draft if he was released early from  the National Guard, much like students who flunked out of college. I have neither the time nor the energy to start googling it, but it would be an interesting bit of information to know.

      Kai's Example Dilemma> "A Good Analogy is like a Diagonal Frog."

      by bigring55t on Sun Feb 15, 2004 at 03:38:03 AM PST

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    •  Honoroable Discharge May Not Mean Much (none)
      Bush Watch makes the charge that the D.C. Sniper attacked an officer and some otehr stuff in the seicde, and he was honorably discharged.  Honorably discharged doesn't settle the question.

      Also, the question is: Did George W. Bush receive favorable treatment in the Guard?  favorable treatment got him in.  Why was there no board of inquiry when he missed his physical?  (This would be normal.)  Why was he allowed to have his flight status lapse so easily?  (Normally, they don't let pilots just drop off of the flight-ready lists, even if they've missed a phsyical.  usually they just force you to take the physicial and start flying again, I think.)

      Either Bush did something that got him out (drinking?  misconduct?) or he got a big fat favor from someone.  There was a war going on.

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