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View Diary: Before she ran off, Condi threw a tantrum in Ottawa.. (323 comments)

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  •  Canada (none)
    needs to pull out of NAFTA. Today.

    Not that we don't need a free trade agreement, but NAFTA has no teeth and has done nothing to prevent trade disputes.

    Yes, we need to pull out a renegotiate when we have cleverer people at the helm - cleverer than "Waffle Boy" Paul Martin and "Idiot Boy" George W. Bush.

    Thy hand, great Anarch! lets the curtain fall: And universal Darkness buries All.

    by Dunciad on Wed Oct 26, 2005 at 09:00:19 AM PDT

    •  ugggghhh... you're wrong.... (4.00)
      'waffle boy' Martin???  You're COMPLETELY falling for Canadian Conservative rhetoric the same way people fell for "flip flop Kerry"... in the actually scare the crap out of me for saying crap like that... DO NOT fall for freaking SLOGANS for God's sake!!!!!

      Martin is a financial GENIUS (he has single-handedly brought this country a SURPLUS, MONEY for our precious social programs!!!).... what would you have had him do in this situation????  

      What... tell the US that we won't sell them OIL??  WHAT, seriously?  The fact is, as much as this is incredibly UNFAIR, its still at the most, $6 billion, do you know HOW MUCH TRADE Canada does with the US in a year????  How many BILLIONS of dollars its worth????  We have the advantage through NAFTA of having a HUGE DOMESTIC MARKET to sell our stuff too... without all the COST of PAYING for their social programs.... do you even KNOW what you're saying when you say things like "lets get out of NAFTA" or are you just falling for emotional manipulation ala Bushco supporters????  S

      Seriously, don't repeat rhetoric when its just based on 'knee jerk' emotion... OF COURSE nobody is happy with the US, but what would you have had Martin do; go in like some COWBOY, like BUSH and do WHAT exactly tell the US to go screw itself, and then watched as they laughed at us screwing OURSELVES???

      We have nobody else interested to sell as much of our domestic product as the US.  We HAVE nobody else seriously interested in buying our oil yet, (why do you think Bush CAN push us around right now, because we HAVE no logical means of retaliation in a trade war)  and MARTIN is WORKING on it, HE'S the one who's been trying to get the CHINESE interested when all the Conservative Opposition did here in Canada was BITCH... the SAME PEOPLE that came up with all of this "Martin is a waffler" grumbling, are the SAME PARTY who's MOTTO it is to have their LIPS FIRMLY PLANTED UP ON A PRESIDENT'S ASS....... rather than have invested any money in trying to get an international market interested....

      PLEASE PLEASE for the love of GOD, we're CANADIAN, don't repeat emotional rhetoric and forego the only LOGICAL leader throughout this WHOLE ORDEAL; our P.M. MARTIN....


      An eye for an eye only ends up making the whole world blind--Gandhi (-9.38, -7.59)

      by hopefulcanadian on Wed Oct 26, 2005 at 09:24:42 AM PDT

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      •  Frankly, we SHOULD use energy as a threat.. (none)
        Bush doesnt like words.. he only appreciates actions.

        What action would better get his attention then imposing a "tax" on energy, something he and his nation is so dependent on?

        Heck, Senator Hatch last week said it would be wise of the US didnt get on Canad's bad side because we potentially have more energy then Saudi Arabia does in oil and gas reserves.

        IF you've got the cards, play em.

        •  For a long time (none)
          Canadian energy companies had a perfered customer....the US.  They knew that the federal government would favour us trade over others, the gov did this by signing trade agreements and provided easy routes of trade.

          Recently, the government has been signing agreements with countries like China and India....this sends a signal to energy companies that perhaps the US is no longer completly favoured......

          Countinued deteriation of our relationship with the US could led to further dependance on the middle east for oil supplies....which I don't believe is a good long term position for the US to be in.....I guess there is slways Venezula:)

        •  that's kind of a myth.... (3.00)
          Jerome a Paris told me about it... we have alot of oil... in reserve but its in the SANDS... VERY messy to GET and VERY EXPENSIVE... we'll make money off of it, but we're NOT going to make a global impact like the Saudis....

          Facts.. we have to stick to FACTS NOT emotion.  FACT.  We sell the US about 10% of the oil they buy world-wide... in the WORST CASE SCENARIO, we TAX our exported oil to BUSH and it WORKS, he gets pissed, he could a) pay the tax, and CREAM us by taxing the crap out of EVERYTHING we export to the US, bye bye car industry, fisheries, grain (like that's not already bad enough) bye bye EVERYTHING....

          AND he COULD always get the Saudi's to UP their oil production to a certain extent... he'd be pissed; it'd be a black eye for the US though, and a beating to the point of near death for Canada....

          Economics.  Its NOT something that you can just randomly make decisions about, our two economies are intricately linked... all of this is rhetoric.. "don't get on Canada's bad side" seriously, if there was that much for Bush to be afraid of; you think he'd get himself to this point with us now???  He's KISSING up on the Saudis... he KNOWS who he has to kiss ass with, and who he can tell to fuck off.... guess which one of the two we are... and for good reason... in a trade war, we'd be demolished....

          Martin, our country's former FINANCE minister (and he was a good one at that) knows a little more about our economy my friend than you or I... we don't just randomly start taxing crap without strategy, or knowing it would backfire and cause millions of Canadians to lose jobs/suffer...

          An eye for an eye only ends up making the whole world blind--Gandhi (-9.38, -7.59)

          by hopefulcanadian on Wed Oct 26, 2005 at 09:42:28 AM PDT

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          •  "demolished"? Hardly. (none)
            Canada's TRADE is predominantly to the US, but by no means is our economy dependant on them. The vast majority of our GDP goes to INTERNAL trade, interprovincial and intraprovincial. The US could quite literally disappear off the face of the planet overnight, and while it would be a serious hit to the Canadian economy, we'd survive and adjust by finding new partners... I suspect the environment would be prime for doing so, considering that many other countries that traded with the US would need to find alternative places to do business with.

            The idea that Canada 'needs' the US is a grave fallacy. We garner great benefits from the relationship, sure, but they're by no means essential.

            Plot your political compass scores at KosCompass

            by Hatamoto on Wed Oct 26, 2005 at 02:18:23 PM PDT

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            •  They are essential (none)
              until we actually FIND those 'new trade partners' right now, they're pretty much all we've GOT in terms of trade partners....

              You honestly think that China wouldn't try to screw us ROYALLY in trade deals if they thought we had no CHOICE but to trade with them if we 'overnight' lost the US as trading partners..?  That is a misleading statement, that we could simply 'adjust' from something like that....

              This situation is going to require RESPONSIBLY, finding new trade partners, diversifying our economy and WEANING ourselves OFF of the American economy.... over TIME, and making MONEY WHILE we do it...

              Its going to take PATIENCE and PLANNING... losing the US in an 'overnight' fashion as a trading partner would NOT be simply a 'serious hit' that we could 'adjust' and overcome.... you seem to forget the whole reason that people are so UPSET here over softwood is because of ONE industry's trade declining, SO MANY are suffering... now multiply that by ALL sectors in Canada that export to the United States taking a similar 'hit' get chaos....

              Prudence, responsibility, planning will lead us to prevail..... not banging our proverbial guns in the air and demanding justice...(ala some of the Conservative party rhetoric)....

              SHUDDER.... if the conservatives under Harper were ever to come to power here; we'd be "Republican light' up North.... GOD FORBID...

              An eye for an eye only ends up making the whole world blind--Gandhi (-9.38, -7.59)

              by hopefulcanadian on Wed Oct 26, 2005 at 02:47:24 PM PDT

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              •  hmmm... (none)
                Within this selfsame article I've seen now both the claim that the US is our near-exclusive trading partner (above) and that China has now become our largest trade parter (seen here). Both can't be right.

                The thing is, our country doesn't absolutely need trade partners *AT ALL*. As I have mentioned before, we garner serious advantages to dealing with other countries, but Canada is largely self-sufficient in most of its needs. As I already said, the US disappearing off the earth would indeed cause a great deal of pain to Canada (and others), but we would survive.

                That is, of course, an extremely unlikely scenario. It's usefulness lies in highlighting the overstated importance of the US as a trade partner to Canada. Important, yes. Possibly the most important. But completely essential? Not hardly.

                Take a read of Mel Hurtig's "The Vanishing Country". Therein are details of the TRUE extent of Canada's trade with the USA and the percentage of our economy it represents, including the lying done with statistics which hyperinflate trade values and those parties who benefit from that misrepresentation.

                Plot your political compass scores at KosCompass

                by Hatamoto on Wed Oct 26, 2005 at 03:15:04 PM PDT

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    •  I agree... (none)
      Submit all trade disputes to WTO.


      Strange and beautiful are the stars tonight, that dance around your head.

      by deepfish on Wed Oct 26, 2005 at 05:16:04 PM PDT

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