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View Diary: What The Media Said About A Miers Withdrawal: Bush Weakness (339 comments)

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  •  The Dem response to the Indictments will be key (4.00)
    It's the last canary in the mineshaft of credibility for elected Dems. At the center of Plame-Gate is the fact we were lied into war. The elected Dems, especially the H. Clinton and Lieberman types, will probably do anything to avoid linking Plame-Gate to War Lies.

    I just called Hillary and Lieberman and gave their staffers an earful that they better stand the fuck up and call the President out on his war lies, when these indictments are handed out. People lied into war are very fucking angry. Dems who protect the President's war lies will feel some of this anger, because there's plenty to go around. While our soldiers die for lies, who needs terrorists when we've got Liebermans who do nothing to protect our soldiers.

    "Blogging doesn't make it so" - Rep. Hayworth (R) AZ 1/6/2005. Oh yeah?

    by bejammin075 on Thu Oct 27, 2005 at 07:37:29 AM PDT

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    •  Yup (none)
      Well-said. I liked Hillary before I disliked her. I hate the Republicans and would never jump the ship for them, but I WOULD become a pissed-off lefty and NOT VOTE FOR DEMOCRATS just to ensure total collapse and rebirth. If the Dems keep screwing their left wing, then they will eventually feel it's wrath. That strategy seems to have worked before, um... like this morning. We lefties need to show we've got the venom of the extreme right. And we'll hold "our" party to account.

      The left should be on the left, not the center or the right.

      by ThanxAl on Thu Oct 27, 2005 at 07:41:09 AM PDT

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      •  While the Dems become Repub-lite (none)
        The Repubs have been busy becoming Nazi-lite. I hate to throw the term 'Nazi' around, but we are in the middle of a war based on lies that's killed tens of thousands.

        I Supported the War When I Believed the Lies

        by bejammin075 on Thu Oct 27, 2005 at 07:52:36 AM PDT

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      •  Switch the words ... (none)
        You wrote ... If the Dems keep screwing their left wing, then they will eventually feel it's wrath.

        Interesting that your statement was made in a diary about how the wingnuts have just taken a giant step in forcing their narrow views on the entire country by showing their wrath. I guess they felt that ...

        If the Reps keep screwing their right wing, then they will eventually feel it's wrath.

        From where I'm sitting, it's getting harder and harder to tell the extremism on the right from the extremism on the left. Both far right and far left seem to be willing to disregard the majority of the country that resides in the moderate middle!

        •  The difference is (none)
          that the extremists on the left are right and the extremists on the right are wrong, by any objective historical and/or scientific analysis.

          "the wingnuts have just taken a giant step in forcing their narrow views on the entire country"

          You could say that about The Founding Fathers.  It took some hotheads in Massachusetts to goad the British into the Revolutionary War.

        •  very different (none)
          The right wingnuts have wrath because they have the power...they've been enabled by the Republicans. The wrath I spoke of on the left is out of pure desperation. The left wing will abandon the Democrats because we've been IGNORED for so long. And we were ignored and correct. That make one a little hot under the collar.

          Middle America doesn't exist anymore...and they don't exist because the Democrats have silenced the left wing counterwieght. If you need more evidence as to the non-existance of the middle ask yourself how can it be that Bill O'Reilly, doucebag that he is, has the most watched cable program in the country. The right wing moved the country rightward and the left wing has been disabled.

          Surfdom is coming.

          The left should be on the left, not the center or the right.

          by ThanxAl on Thu Oct 27, 2005 at 08:09:46 AM PDT

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          •  I see the same ... (none)
            ... dynamics playing out on the right and left, and I hear the left screaming for adoption of many of the same tactics as the right, and I often hear similarly framed rhetoric. Yes, the policies are opposite, but both are extreme from where I sit somewhere in the middle. Politically, I don't see the nation swinging all the way far left as a reaction to Bush and/or the far right in the next election.
            •  What middle? (none)
              You can't even mention one policy on which you nase your statement.

              I don't believe you are in the middle.

              I believe you are to the Right.

              I bet you are anti-choice.

              That's is an extremist position.

              You are deluding yourself as to the fact that you are not an extremeist yourself.

              The SCOTUS is Extraordinary.

              by Armando on Thu Oct 27, 2005 at 08:29:44 AM PDT

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              •  No, in the middle ... (none)
                ... not anti-choice, and not anti-gay (are there any other hot-button litmus tests that you would like to apply, Armando?)

                I just see the far right and far left positions as not representing what is best for America. I believe that we need a middle consensus if we are to keep this nation together.

                •  I nominate you to... (none)
                  the DLC. But I do respect your opinion. That's why I still, tho hesitantly, call myself a Democrat.

                  The left should be on the left, not the center or the right.

                  by ThanxAl on Thu Oct 27, 2005 at 08:44:29 AM PDT

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                  •  Not a DLCer, either ... (none)
                    I'm just what my name says, a Roosevelt Democrat (in the Kennedy tradition), and I'm old enough to remember what that means, having lived it for most of my young life.
                    •  How measured should we be in asking (none)
                      our elected Dems and Republicans to represent the 100% of Americans that were lied into war?

                      Thousands continue to die. Probably thousands more of our brave soldiers will die. Most Representatives, and probably all the Senators know we were lied into war. But they do nothing.

                      We've asked nicely:
                      "Please oppose a war based on lies"

                      "Please oppose the War Criminal President, and please say or do anything to show that you don't support the President's decision to lie us into war"

                      "Please stand up and oppose the President's policy of killing our soldiers based on his lies"

                      I think it's pretty fucking extreme for the President to lie us into war. Simply talking about it is not extreme, it's a bare minimum for any patriotic American.

                      But what are your thoughts on the above??

                      I Supported the War When I Believed the Lies

                      by bejammin075 on Thu Oct 27, 2005 at 08:55:52 AM PDT

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                      •  Talk is just talk ... (none)
                        ... until we Democrats can win control of a chamber of Congress and/or win the White House. Without being in power somewhere, we can have at best marginal effect on Iraq War policy. About all we can do effectively as a party is continue to point out that "stay the course" is not working (the American people can see that for themselves) and demand that Bush put forth a plan for success (i.e., assume the position of being the voice of the disillusioned electorate). If Bush can come up with a good plan, then we support it. If he can't, we keep asking the American people to give us a chance to try by giving us control of Congress in 2006. If we don't win in 2006 and/or 2008, though, our talk will remain talk.
                        •  What 'talk'? The elected Dems are SILENT (none)
                          You say "Talk is just talk" but you are missing the point: Elected Democrats aren't even talking about the fact that we were Lied into War. This is a seperate issue from whether we are "winning" or have a good war plan.

                          And what do you mean "if" Bush can come up with a good plan? This is the same crew that knew all along they were going to invade Iraq, no matter what, no matter how bad or flimsy the evidence was, no matter what the most sensible generals had to say, and they had all the time in the world to plan before the invasion, or during the invasion, or in 2 1/2 years after the invasion.

                          Furthermore, Bush is increasingly surrounded by incompetant ass kissers. Anybody who was sane and/or principled was thrown out of the Admin a long time ago. Bush's best chance to have a plan was 3 or more years ago.

                          Bush's only 'plan' is for Iraqis to "stand up, so we can stand down". Problem is, they hate us so much, we can't give them any good weapons. If we train and equip the Iraqi's too well, Iraqis will turn on us. Sunni's got fucked by the new constitution, so the civil war will escalate.

                          You have to realize this: It is IMPOSSIBLE for Bush to "win" in Iraq. If you want to "win" rather than pull out, we have to completely wipe this Administration out of office. As in, sweep the House and Senate in 2006, Impeach (Bush + Cheney) and Speaker Pelosi becomes President Pelosi, and then it's Paging General Wes Clark, wet glass clean up on aisle Iraq.

                          Bush isn't going to come up with a good plan. If the war had actually been short, sweet and neat, his cronies and war profiteer friends wouldn't be making as much money. A lack of a plan maximizes profits for his buddies. Look how the destablization of the middle east has lead to record oil company profits. The war is partly about oil. Not for you to have $1/gal gas, but for Exxon to net $10 billion a quarter.

                          Wake up.

                          I Supported the War When I Believed the Lies

                          by bejammin075 on Thu Oct 27, 2005 at 10:22:30 AM PDT

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                •  Name one position then (none)
                  That justifies your statement.

                  Iraq?

                  This is just smesaring from you then.

                  The SCOTUS is Extraordinary.

                  by Armando on Thu Oct 27, 2005 at 08:46:58 AM PDT

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              •  Wow (none)
                You really turned up the volume on this post, Armando.  Attacking your interlocutor is pretty un-helpful.  The assertion that the left contains some shrill exremists is a reasonable one.  Even though I disagree with equating Michael Moore with Roy Moore, you have to be aware that some people (including the MSM) are taking this view.
        •  The you are no Democrat (none)
          and certainly NOT a Rooosevelt Democrat.

          Outrageous statement from you.

          The SCOTUS is Extraordinary.

          by Armando on Thu Oct 27, 2005 at 08:27:52 AM PDT

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          •  Roosevelt? (none)
            O'Reilly told me he was really a centrist. Surely you believe him? Opine?

            Let me not forget to remind us all that history is being re-written as we speak so it is understandable that people in the center-right actually think they're on the left. The sad part is that in modern America that probably is the left, as represented by most of our esteemed members of Congress, and definetly the MSM. True leftists have been demonized into submission and fear.

            The left should be on the left, not the center or the right.

            by ThanxAl on Thu Oct 27, 2005 at 08:42:32 AM PDT

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        •  Very different (none)
          In our case, the fact of the matter is that 100 % of the country was Lied into War.

          We are simply getting vocal about the fact that 0% of our elected officials are representing the 100% who were lied to.

          We anti-Bush-Lies "extremists" are trying to get representation for everybody. Even hardcore GOP ass lickers were lied into war. Our efforts are getting representation for them too. They are just too brainwashed, etc, to realize they were lied into war. But just because they don't know their President is a war criminal doesn't mean they don't deserve justice too.

          However "extreme" we need to get is however extreme we need to get.

          We want accountability for the War Crimes President. We're not backing down, we will not tone it the fuck down. We haven't even begun to get Angry.

          I Supported the War When I Believed the Lies

          by bejammin075 on Thu Oct 27, 2005 at 08:45:15 AM PDT

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          •  well done. (none)
            I should have said that earlier. Our positions are not EXTREME. They only look to be so from the gaze of the far right. Thirty years ago we'd be accused of being bourgeoise liberals. Now we're left wing extrememists. We're getting awefully close to making Hitler look like a pansy-liberal-hippie-from the 60s-at Woodstock.

            The left should be on the left, not the center or the right.

            by ThanxAl on Thu Oct 27, 2005 at 08:50:56 AM PDT

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            •  I often think of the line from Memento (none)
              (if you didn't see that movie it was very very good).

              A guy has a form of memory loss where he can't make new memories, and only has short term memory for a couple minutes. It's rare but real brain condition. The character in the movie had his brain injured during an attack that killed his wife. The last thing he remembers is his wife getting killed, so he is obsessed with finding the killer. A crooked cop in the movie brings up a problem for the main character: even if he finds the killer, with his handycap, he won't remember it.

              The widowed husband says something like "Just because I won't remember it, doesn't mean my wife doesn't deserve justice." I think about that when I think about the wingnuts. Just because they don't know the President is a war criminal, doesn't mean they don't deserve justice too. They are also Americans. Heck, they're even human. So we gotta do what we gotta do.

              I Supported the War When I Believed the Lies

              by bejammin075 on Thu Oct 27, 2005 at 09:11:02 AM PDT

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      •  Let's not ignore (none)
        the fact that the right wing is far better funded than the left wing.  But that's what the internets are for...

        "If you get an outfit, you can be a cowboy, too..." : The Smothers Brothers.

        by wozzle on Thu Oct 27, 2005 at 08:09:39 AM PDT

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