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View Diary: I remember the day when....and I'm afraid (315 comments)

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  •  That's pretty much it, (4.00)
    there will always be abortion.

    Cave women had abortions.  Women are NOT going to have children they do not want to have.

    We are going to give them safe options not to have those children, either through birth control or safe abortion, or they will resort to the hanger or knitting needle.

    I even tried the knitting needle.  It didn't work.

    Desperate women do desperate things.

    •  Thank God you survived (4.00)
      Just saw Vera Drake on cable the other night.  Its simplicity -- the stark contrast between Vera's heroic simple decency and the sanctimonious judgments of the male power structure  -- was an overwhelmingly eloquent argument against going back to those desperate, benighted days.

      Thanks for a scary, beautiful, sad diary.

      Now a New Mexican, and much the better for it.

      by Dallasdoc on Mon Oct 31, 2005 at 06:11:59 PM PST

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      •  "Thank God you survived" (none)
        Yes, thank God she survived, my only regret is that her baby did not survive as well.  I don't want to put a load of guilt on this woman or others, but I don't quite believe it when they say they never regretted it.  Deep down, inside, they must mourn for the death of their baby.

        Abortion is a tragedy.  I'm sorry, but that is the only word to describe it.  Women who have had abortions, for whatever reasons, surely have regrets.  To ignore this or rationalize it away will not work in the long run.

        This is between this woman and her conscience, and her God if she is a believer.  All I can say, is, one day she, as we all will, will have to make an account of our life to God.  That is my opinion, and I also want to point out that God is compassionate and merciful, and will forgive all who come in sincere repentance.

        That is what I believe.  I need forgiveness for my many sins, and I will have to deal with the skeletons in my own closet.  But to say that one does not have any regrets for so tragic an action, (and I'm sure you were under intense personal pressure), does not mean that you will be able to live in denial all your life.

        As we all must, own up to it, face it, and go to God in trust and repentance.   God will welcome you, as the Shepherd did, when abandoning the 99 sheep who did not stray, he went to search for the 1 sheep that was lost.

        "Surely I say unto you, there will be rejoicing among the angels in Heaven over one sinner who has repented, for he had been lost, and now he has been found."  

        •  Your beliefs are yours (4.00)
          Hers are hers, and we each have our own belief system.

          Please do not assume that your spiritual truths apply for anyone else.  No matter how fervently you hold your religious beliefs, that doesn't make them true for others.

          Now a New Mexican, and much the better for it.

          by Dallasdoc on Tue Nov 01, 2005 at 08:41:05 AM PST

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        •  Individuals (4.00)
          Yes, thank God she survived, my only regret is that her baby did not survive as well.  I don't want to put a load of guilt on this woman or others, but I don't quite believe it when they say they never regretted it.  Deep down, inside, they must mourn for the death of their baby.

          No, they don't have to. Your problem is you can't believe the inside of anyone else's head is any different from yours.

          If you feel this way don't get an abortion. I'll support you in that decision.

          But keep your lack of empathy for other people's situations, minds, feelings and understandings to yourself.

          It's none of your business.

          Republicans are men of narrow vision, who are afraid of the future. -- Jimmy Carter

          by elsaf on Tue Nov 01, 2005 at 08:50:23 AM PST

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        •  Can it with the whole sermon please! (4.00)
          Not all women grieve or regret when they have an abortion. Some women like me, have misplaced greif over the whole damned thing. I'll explain.

          I had an abortion when I was 21 and it is just now that I realize that I don't regret it.

          Why should I feel like a sinner with something to regret? Why not the asshole boyfriend of mine who got me pregnant and pretty much said that he would dump me if  I didn't get rid? What about that spineless fucker that wanted me to use some concoction that he heard about so he could avoid paying for it?

          How fucking dare you tell me how to feel?! Abortion is a tragedy?! A tragedy is something that could have been avoided that ends up ruining someone's life. Katrina, Rita, the Boxing Day tsunami and the Pakistan earthquake are tragedy. Abortion is a private matter between a woman and her doctor.

          I don't regret shit, except going with him and getting pregnant in the first place.

          My grandmother used to be the go-to woman in the halcyon days of pre Roe v Wade. She mixed up the concotions and she once held her 13 year old sister's legs while she had a back alley abortion. You will not hear of a more vocal supporter of women's rights than my 85 year old granny. She has given many an abortion to her neieces that were sexually abused by fathers, uncles, cousins and brothers. She regrets none of it.

          Take your preaching and guilt and suck on it. We women don't want or need it.

          Peace if possible, justice at any rate

          by conturnedred on Tue Nov 01, 2005 at 08:51:17 AM PST

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          •  Sorry forgot to add (none)
            I'm a mother and I'm pretty sure the reason I am a good mother is because I (and my husband) actually wanted my son, instead of having him forced on me.

            Peace if possible, justice at any rate

            by conturnedred on Tue Nov 01, 2005 at 08:53:43 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

          •  sorry if I was preaching (none)
            Conturnedred and others:

            I know how you feel. I hate it when people preach to me, I really do.  That is why I hesitate to get into the abortion debate, because although I must admit I'm pro-life and always have been, in the last several years I have been uncomfortable as a progressive Democrat being associated with a viewpoint that seems to be so foreign to progressives and so acceptable to rightwingers.

            I empathize with the situation a woman who has an abortion encounters.  And although I directed my post to a woman who said she had an abortion, and has no regrets apparently, I would not for a single moment let the selfish boyfriend or husband who abandons a woman he impregnated and pressured her to have an abortion off the hook.

            A man who would do that, in my opinion, is not a man at all.  He is scum.  

            I will get a little personal with you.  I understand your aversion to people "preaching" because I react that way when I hear ministers or priests preaching to me, only for another reason.  I am a gay man.  We all know who fundamentalist and conservative Catholics feel about us.  They view us as sinners and the Catholics call us "intinsically disordered."

            Well, I hate that.  But it has humbled me.  I realize many feel I am a sinner, so it gives me pause, (in Fitz's terms) when I confront someone else with a possible moral failing.  That is what I meant when I would have to deal with the skeletons in my own closet.

            But, I will tell you this.  As a gay man, I have never got a woman pregnant.  But I will tell you one thing.  I have had 3 cats at one time.  At times they were a "burden" to me, kept me from going on weekend trips, moving places, etc.  But I could not abandon them because I loved them.  If I ever had a child, I could not see me abandoning an innocent child as well.  I would love that child with my whole heart and soul.

            I "preached" to that woman because I truly believe there must be regret in her heart and others.  I dont believe there is no regret.

            I hope this is not too much "information" for you but I wanted to share it so you don't think I'm some holier than thou rightwing hypocrite.

            Abortion is a tragedy for all, and whoever aids in that, or pressures a poor woman to have one, is equally, if not more guilty and culpable in that tragedy.  

            •  FUCKING CATS??!! (none)
              Dude, hand me the shovel.  You're in deep enough already.
              •  yes, cats (none)
                apparently you're not an animal friendly person.  Well I am.  I used the example to show how, if one loves life, as I do, one bears the burden for that life and does not abandon it out of difficulty or expediency.

                I know to many people it sounds a little cornball or strange, but I was reaching for an analogy, and with my situation, since I don't have children of my own to point to, that is the best I could see.
                 

                •  Admittedly I'm not a cat person (none)
                  but I do love dogs.  (And dogs are usually more work than cats.)  But to compare even taking care of a dog to the raising of a child is just utterly ridiculous.  I've given birth to two children...I've carried them inside my body and I've nourished them and I've taken care of them and worried about them and basically given up my life and my career for them.  And you know what, as wonderful and fulfilling as it all has been, it's also been fucking hard.  So hard that I don't ever want to do it again and would probably choose abortion if I got pregnant again.

                  I know you probably mean well, but comparing raising a child to taking care of cats really isn't helping your argument.  So you didn't get to go on a vacation; I didn't get to go to work for 6 years, how about that?

            •  Regret (4.00)
              I know it is hard for pro-lifers to understand why someone would feel no regret for having an abortion. To you, a fetus is a human life and you can't imagine taking a human life without feeling something no matter how justified you were. But your moral intuition that a fetus is a human life is not universally-shared. I have no moral intuition that a blob of cells that happens to have human DNA deserves the same moral respect as a child. It just doesn't compute for me, in the same way that killing that same blob of cells without regret does not compute for you. I would never support abortion rights if I thought abortion were the moral equivalent of infanticide. But I don't - no one has ever been able to explain to me why a bunch of cells that can't suffer, feel, or sustain a relationship with anyone should have any rights at all.

              I know I'm not going to talk you out of any of your deeply held beliefs about when life begins. But please realize that all morally-serious people do not agree with you about whether fetuses deserve any moral concern at all.

        •  Oh Michigan Paul, you who know the mind of God... (none)
          and apparently everyone else.  You have NO idea what you are talking about.  Until you have been pregnant with an unwanted child you will have no idea what you are talking about.  All the religion in the world cannot give you that kind of knowledge.

          It is wonderful you are so secure in your religion.  But it doesn't make you right, or even good.

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