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View Diary: {UPDATE 5 - PROGRESS!} Abramoff-Scanlon Memo Reveals Secret Republican Strategy, Disses Evangelicals (196 comments)

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  •  I'm surprised this story hasn't been covered here (4.00)
    Unless I missed it some time before.  Which is entirely possible.

    But I think this is great.  Reccommend if you do too!

    -Legalize Freedom!-
    truth > lies = my blog

    by JohnnyCougar on Thu Nov 03, 2005 at 06:55:55 PM PST

    •  Many recent diaries on Abramoff (4.00)
      The more the better. He is connected to dozens of GOP scandals. Many are waiting in the wings to break.

      We should keep an Abramoff post front and center everyday. Check out the "Jack Abramoff" tag for more details on the growing number of scandals.

    •  And who is Michael Scanlon? (4.00)
      Just some high priced lobbyist for sale?  No, more than that.  Before he became a lobbyist, he worked on Capitol Hill – as Majority Leader Tom DeLay's press aide.

      Well, I'm sure a lot of you knew that already.  But I just want it spelled out here for the record.

    •  It has been covered (none)
      In a diary which is now moved to teh front page (by kos).   Same quote as you use above.  Doesn't seem to be much difference in your angle.  

      Reality addict - can't get enough of seeing it all clearly

      by writeout on Thu Nov 03, 2005 at 09:24:54 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Actually, I was first.... (none)
        I guess that's how the cookie crumbles...

        -Legalize Freedom!-
        truth > lies = my blog

        by JohnnyCougar on Thu Nov 03, 2005 at 09:26:19 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  The reason it is so important is this: (4.00)

          Even in Washington, the rise and fall of Jack Abramoff is breathtaking. At his peak he commanded $750-an-hour lobbying fees and maintained impeccable ties to the leaders of the conservative movement, where he was known as the "godfather" of Tom DeLay's lobbying network. DeLay himself once called Abramoff "one of my closest and dearest friends."

          LINK

          roseeriter

          "Time is for careful people, not passionate ones"

          by roseeriter on Fri Nov 04, 2005 at 02:34:13 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  The support for Republicans among fundamentalists (4.00)
            Has been nothing short of amazing. They are the reason Bush's approval numbers have not dropped into the 20's. These people (suckers) vote and display a level of blind loyalty that the cons love and exploit. If we can sow seeds of doubt in them it will be open season on Republicans come 2006. Without them EVERY Republican candidate is sunk. That is why this is so important. The Republicans have moved so far to the right that there are practically no moderates left among them. Anything we can do to drive a wedge between the fundamentalists and the Republicans needs to be done, no matter how small it might seem. Spread the word. Post on other messageboards, contact the MSM. GET THE WORD OUT! Let the American Taliban, aka the "wackos", know what the Republican hierarchy REALLY think about them.
            •  We need a hundred (4.00)
              Mike Starks, calling Christian radio stations, amazed and outraged as how the Republicans exploit and degrade true-believing Christians.

              Let there be sharks - TracieLynn

              by GussieFN on Fri Nov 04, 2005 at 07:43:39 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

            •  geez, you'd actually have to show some respect... (3.33)
              first of all for evangelicals and fundamentalists. as a fellow evangelical, i don't think we are stupid, moronic, and believe in the tooth fairy, as many secular liberals like to tar us with. as long as the NYT and liberals continue to sneer at believers, while the GOP at least respects (and yes, manipulates them) the importance of faith, you still won't get anywhere...
              •  this goes to the heart of the matter (3.66)
                I agree with you that the secular left shows little respect for the evangelical right.... but the reverse is also true, of course. And the secular right and the evangelical left don't like each other much either.

                Put your basic point is spot on: until we start paying some basic respect to evangelicals we aren't getting anywhere with them.

                Come get lost in our world: www.politicsandletters.com

                by MonkeyDog102 on Fri Nov 04, 2005 at 08:19:01 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  there's lack of respect and... (4.00)
                  There's trying to pass laws imposing your restrictive "morals" on everyone else.

                  There's telling your children that people different from you are going to Hell.

                  There's voting for politicians who are halfway to slitting your throats because someday, somehow, they might actually promote your agenda.

                  For starters.

                  Will someone PLEASE give him a blowjob so we can impeach him?

                  by Leggy Starlitz on Fri Nov 04, 2005 at 08:52:15 AM PST

                  [ Parent ]

              •  I'll show respect (3.66)
                when they stop falling for stupid stuff like this.  I had no problem respecting Jimmy Carter, my childhood introduction to evangelism, because he clearly wasn't an idiot.
              •  and this wasn't sneering? (4.00)
                calling them Whackos?

                Believing they are so out of touch that they could be LIED to and manipulated with impunity?

                The Don't respect you, and they won't be there when you wake up in the morning.

                Think this through.  The Deliberately stirred up Christians who believe that gambling is a sin, to oppose a casino project.  And they did this to HELP their Clients, ANOTHER CASINO.

                They played these people for suckers and called them whack-jobs in the process.  And you believe the GOP respects you?

                You cannot RESPECT people you are manipulating as crassly as this.  They've played Christians for sucker long before this, appealing to their religious favor to get them to support things that  would make Jesus physically Ill.  

                If'n I remember my bible correctly, JC was AGAINST wars, hated and violence, and took a pretty dim view of people that fatten their wallets and pile up earthly possession while their neighbors go hungry and do without.

                And Yet, in a nutshell that's the very Republican Agenda they are brainwashed into supporting.

                Knowledge is power Power Corrupts Study Hard Be Evil

                by Magorn on Fri Nov 04, 2005 at 08:26:16 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  branson, MO et al is FILLED with evangelicals... (none)
                  ohhhh, they gamble... (said with a krameresque accent.)
                  •  Baptists never smoke or drink... (4.00)
                    In front of other Baptists.

                    (From my 80-year-old mother, a former Southern Baptist from Oklahoma).

                    Bill Clinton's Arkansas version was: The difference between a Baptist and a Methodist is that Methodists do greet each other by name when they meet in the liquor store.

                    Amputees make better lovers.

                    by homogenius on Fri Nov 04, 2005 at 11:01:55 AM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                •  but what alternative are we giving ppl of faith? (none)
                  Pointing out the sleezeball tactics of a handful of Republican leaders isn't going to change any perceptions...

                  Sure, they'll be pissed, but we aren't offering any alternatives. You really think this is going to cause them to vote Democrat?

                  Just read any of the message boards on Koz. Are you telling me that if you were a fundamentalist Christian you would even want to associate with its members?

                  Is there a common ground Democrats and Christians can build on? If so, what is it? What issues that are offensive to Christians are Democrats willing to back off from?

                  Until there is more discussion and ideas about that, these kinds of tactics are useless, imo. We certainly not going to change any minds.

                  •  I do not think they will vote Democratic (none)
                    The chasm is simply too great. But spreading the word about things like this can discourage them from voting Republican. And that wouldn't be a bad result. Because without their support no Republican can get elected.
                    •  really, the chasm is too great? (none)
                      So the message truly is that Christians should find another political party to be a member of?

                      I'm not talking about your hardcore brainwashed fundie, I'm talking about your moderate Christian voter that could help Dems more religious areas of the country.

                      To me, this is one of the largest failures of the Democratic party. We have no message for religious people. We only have ridicule.

                      Rather than trying to build on common ground and establishing principles that can be used by Christians to defend a Democratic vote, we hold on to failure of their candidates as the only option to gain traction.

                      I really wish Dems would communicate more effectively to Christians. I believe the core principles of the party are more closely related than that of Republicans, but somehow we have conceded this issue.

                      •  What are you babbling about? (none)
                        The vast majority of democrats are Christians. I know personally several Democrats who have actually said, in these words... that they are Democrats because they are Christians.

                        cheers,

                        Mitch Gore

                        Nobody will change America for you, you have to work to make it happen

                        by Lestatdelc on Fri Nov 04, 2005 at 03:57:02 PM PST

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  Precisely (none)
                          When I was younger, in Catholic school, many nuns & priests supported the democratic agenda as akin to justice. Poverty & hunger were not blameworthy & it was up to each of us to help in any way we could. It was sin to hoard your money & sneer at the less fortunate.

                          A Conservative government is an organized hypocrisy- Benjamin Disraeli

                          by vcmvo2 on Fri Nov 04, 2005 at 04:27:09 PM PST

                          [ Parent ]

              •  I just posted (3.81)
                the article about Scanlon in FreeRepublic and within 10 seconds they pulled the thread!! Wow, that some conservative idea of freedom of speech , isn't it??

                   Oh, by the way, liberals such as myself don't sneer at you as much as we think you are hypocrites. You call, nay more like beat your chest on the name of Christ who never raised a finger to defend himself even at the time of his death. You want to preach Christ who asked to forgive your brother, "I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven" and in His name, you have supported and abetted a imperial President and his murderous bloody war which has killed more than two thousand of your fellow countrymen and ONE HUNDRED THOUSAND absolutely innocent Iraqi men, women and children who have never done you any harm. Sir, with all due respect, we liberals don't think you are stupid, we think you are too blind in your racial(and Yes I say racial because God only knows you would be far more careful in your judgement if Iraq was a white Anglo-Saxon Protestant country!) arrogance to see the beam in your eyes.

                  Sir, in our liberal eyes, you are no Christian. We liberals refuse to be lectured by someone who mocks the Christ of mercy in every turn of their vengeful ways.

                •  and here's Johnny Cougar AGAIN (none)
                  Downrating those who dare to talk back to this statement.  

                  You wrote a good diary, and I support it.  But this serial downrating is petty bullshit, especially since you haven't had the courtesy to ARGUE any points... just gone an a downrating spree.  

                  •  Fine...let me spell it out for you (none)
                    Categorizing and downgrading a whole group of people as thinking and acting the same way is not correct.

                    "Evangelicals do this, they all suck" you might as well say.

                    No, Evangelicals AND conservatives are people too.  Just like you.  They just choose to listen to diferent sources for their information about this world, such as their pastor and talk radio.  They are GOOD people, and many times, the only people they can listen to are a bad influence on them.

                    This dary exposes to them the disrespect their leaders have for them.  It is instrumental in changing their minds.  But these people are good people, they are just tricked into supporting the right wing.  It's not like they intend to impose malice...they think they are doing the right thing.

                    -Legalize Freedom!-
                    truth > lies = my blog

                    by JohnnyCougar on Fri Nov 04, 2005 at 02:03:33 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  double standard (none)
                      "Categorizing and downgrading a whole group of people as thinking and acting the same way is not correct."

                      And yet you give the original poster a 4 for his categorizing and downgrading of New York liberals as thinking and acting the same way.

                      Very hypocritical.

                      I like your diary.  I recommended it.  But this...

                      "This dary exposes to them the disrespect their leaders have for them.  It is instrumental in changing their minds."

                      ...shows you may have delusions of grandeur.  Stop policing your own diary because you think it's important.  It ain't your job.  If people disagree with each other here in this diary, that's just the way it goes.  This is an open forum, and you can't put the kibosh on that because you think your own diary is important.  

                      I also strongly disagree with your premise that all rightwing so-called Christians are merely "good people" who are "just tricked into supporting the right wing."    

                      Please.  Where's their personal responsibilty for making moral decisions?  Isn't that what evangelicals expect of everyone else?  

                      Yeah, I'm sure some of them are very nice people.  My family are true Red State people -- rightwingers all the way.  And I love them.    But that doesn't absolve them or anyone else from being responsible for their own morals and values.  

                      And since the rightwing evangelicals in this country constantly accuse their insultingly-stereotyped "N.Y. liberals" as LACKING morality and values, it's a double standard.  

                      Like your ratings.

              •  sorry, this is BULLSHIT: (3.86)
                "...as many secular liberals like to tar us with. as long as the NYT and liberals continue to sneer at believers"

                Evangelicals have gotten far, far more respect and deference than they have EVER given in return.  

                The whole "liberal NY makes fun of us" crap is as old as the hills, and just a lot of self-pitying spin.   Take it from me:  most New Yorkers are content to leave you alone.  You don't extend the same courtesy and respect.  

                Why do you evangelicals expect respect to be a one-way street?  I imagine it's because of your inherent sense of moral superiority, where you get to criticize, insult, and slander your fellow citizens, but require that your ass still be kissed, in return.

                Sorry,  no more one-way arguments.  No more unilateral disarmament.  If you or your fellow evangelicals want to talk MORALS and VALUES, let's really have the discussion.  Let's examine EVERYONE's values and morals...including your own.

                And don't expect to be given any points in advance for inherent superiority, or to be given respect you aren't prepared to offer.  

                Your movement has now shown its hand in terms of its alleged morals and values, and you have come up very short.  So you no longer get to claim the high ground without being questioned.

                In fact, I think most modern evangelicals have been proven out-and-out hypocrites -- throwing Jesus' name around while comepletely rejecting his actual message.  This may not apply to you, but you arouse my suspicion when you start whining about mean secular people.  Take the plank out of your own eye first.

                •  Hey Johnny Cougar (none)
                  Care to explain giving me a 2 for this?

                  I recommended this effin' diary of yours, you ingrate.

                  Please explain your problem with my statement.  And make it good.

                •  You said it. Flourishing the good Book... (none)
                  and being a good person are two different things entirely. That goes for any 'good Book' anywhere on earth - Buddhist sutras, Zend Avesta, Quran, Torah, Vedas, Holy Bible.
                •  a clarification (none)
                  I said:

                  "I think most modern evangelicals have been proven out-and-out hypocrites"

                  ...But I should have specified that I mean RIGHT-WING, CONSERVATIVE "CHRISTIANS."

                  I know, respect, and love many Christians who take their faith very seriously.  In fact, I AM such a Christian.

                  So I am tired of the simple "Christian = righting Republican" formula.  And I think those who support the rightwing Republican agenda in 2005 support a very un-Christian philosophy, onw which is antithetical to the teachings of Jesus Christ.  I believe that very strongly.  My faith tells me to follow what Jesus said, not ignore it and follow my political party's wishlist.

                  And sorry, the rightingers get NO pass on their own personal responsiblity for that un-Christian agenda.  No adult does.

                  (I will now wait for the control-freak diarist to drive by and downrate me again.)  

              •  Respect? (3.33)
                Your brethren who carry signs proclaiming that GOD HATES FAGS outside the funerals of gay men deserve my RESPECT?
              •  Put away your net ... (3.60)
                 ... and I'll stop acting like you are trying to hunt and eat me.

                Respect my soul, and I might respect your mouth.

                Respect my choices, and I might respect yours.

                Until then, you are a superstitious, benighted, immoral, thug.

                And stupid, too.  The GOP doesn't recognize the meaning of your faith, it recognizes the use of the fact that you value your faith so much.  Your relationship to the GOP is exactly that of a nubile child to a pederast.  Pederasts place a high value on sex with children.  That children like the attention doesn't make it right.  Children think pederasts are interested in them.  They are not.  They are interested in sex.  The GOP wants your votes and your money.  And you lie down and give out.

                And you want me to join your tribe?

                -5.13;-6.92 Have you heard the good news? All deities are fake. All prophets lie.

                by Yellow Canary on Fri Nov 04, 2005 at 09:54:27 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

              •  you missed a full stop (none)
                first of all for evangelicals and fundamentalists. as a fellow evangelical, i don't think. We are stupid, moronic, and believe in the tooth fairy, as many secular liberals like to tar us with. as long as the NYT and liberals continue to sneer at believers, while the GOP at least respects (and yes, manipulates them) the importance of faith, you still won't get anywhere...
                •  I guess it (none)
                  is all of the manipulation that completely astounds us.  I am a Presbyterian somewhat on the liberal side and I believe that Jesus was a socialist and a feminist.  But the evangelicals don't seem to agree.

                  Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities-Voltaire

                  by hairspray on Fri Nov 04, 2005 at 11:17:38 AM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                •  I think (none)
                  You said,
                  "as long as the NYT and liberals continue to sneer at believers"
                  Do you see the problem Chumley? You must think Evangelicals and the Conservatives are the only believers out there and we Liberals are not. Do you see the arrogance behind your statement? Has it ever occured to you that we Liberals can believe in God also and can have as much faith as you have?
                  •  Sorry (none)
                    it would be Ranz instead of Chumley.
                    •  Fundamentalists of any hue (none)
                      are inherently dangerous.

                      The problem I have with the evangelicals I have met is that they beleive they should evangelise. I am not against people of faith.

                      Ghandi, Mother Theresa, Martin Luther King all were people of great faith, but they were not intent on converting people to pray in false exhalations of nonsense sounds and receive the spirit and ad nauseam say "Praise Jesus" every time a pastor farts.

                      Evangelicals believe in a personal relationship with God and getting to know god through personal revelation, without reasoning. You "think" it hey, god told you!  Sorry but it is just you in your head.  

              •  See my note (none)
                 

                Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities-Voltaire

                by hairspray on Fri Nov 04, 2005 at 11:34:04 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

              •  Your comment is disrespectful (none)
                Looks like you think belief and faith are yours and not mine. I'm sorry the NYT sneers at you, but what the fuck do you want me to do about the NYT? We "won't get anywhere." Well, you've certainly gotten us somewhere now. Every word you speak is disgusting. Every syllable you mutter and shout is a horrifying, occulted and savage hunt for victims of sacrifice to wash away your fear and doubt in the bloody rites of war. War. War. Your refined and genteel drive to exterminate your enemies shows me what's in store for me if I allow you the "respect" of dictating to me what is right and wrong. Go fuck yourself, you smiling slaughterer of children.

                The dubya stands for freedom.

                by paraphrase on Fri Nov 04, 2005 at 01:39:58 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  small point (none)
                  I agree with what you're saying here, paraphrase.

                  Just wanted to point out that THIS...

                  "I'm sorry the NYT sneers at you"

                  ...isn't even true.  It's just a convenient myth.

                  If so, let's see some concrete evidence from those who claim it.

                   

              •  Respects the faith? (4.00)
                Manipulating faith in order to acheive your desired ends isn't being respectful of faith or the people who are faithful.

                It's the exact opposite of it. It's using someone's faith to get what you want (power, money, chicks) over your opponent.

                It's several of the deadlies all mixed into one pot...plain and simple.

                Secular liberals recognize that there are many religious faiths around the world. And they recognize that there may be more than one path to enlightenment. Most are aware that they don't have the answer and act accordingly.

                As such, many of those secular liberals respect your particular choice of faith...so long as you don't try to force it down their throats.

                Contrary to what you may have heard from folks like Abramoff, Scalon, and (I'll add) the RNC, secular liberals are not interested in banning religion. However, most secular liberals do have a healthy appreciation for the separation or church and state. It's part of what assures me that your religion doesn't become the established one...and I can practice my own faith without fear of being burned at the stake or some such thing.

                "Computer. End holographic program...Computer? Computer?"

                by kredwyn on Fri Nov 04, 2005 at 01:53:04 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

              •  Jimmy Carter has this nailed. (none)
                Over the past few days I've seen Carter interviewed regarding his new book several times.  Carter is pointing us in the right direction.  His point:  Most American's are Christian.  Some Americans like Carter himself are evangelical Christians; i.e. born again, devout.  But within the sub-set of evangelical Christians there are the Fundamentalist.  This group has overtaken the Southern Baptist Convention, aligns itself with the Republican party completely and is distinct in the following ways:  1)  Fundies believe that they talk to God directly and that God talks to them.  2)  They believe therefore that their views are beyond question; i.e. they are right and opposing views are wrong.  3)  They do not believe in compromise; it is their way or the highway.  4)  They believe they are superior; they hold the truth, those who do not adhere to every tenent of their world view are morally inferior.  5)  Their support for Bush is sacrosanct because they believe Bush is a Christian fundamentalist like themselves.
                Carter has resigned any affliation he had with the Southern Baptist Convention.  He is pointing to the obvious.  That fundamentalism is fundamentally different from evangelical Christian dogma.
                Case in point.  Yesterday I sat near three Southern Baptist in a crowded restarant over lunch.  One had recently completed seminary.  He was loudly proclaiming stuff like the following:  Chuck Colson is a one of God's modern day prophets.  Colson's book contains an absolute truth; i.e you cannot be a Christian unless you believe and accept every word in the book of Genesis.  (Take a poll if you like, but I do not believe most Christians would subscribe to or endorse that statement.)
            •  There's a fundamentalist ... (none)
              born every minute.

              Power corrupts. Hey, let's learn it the hard way!

              by Bob Love on Fri Nov 04, 2005 at 10:09:49 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

            •  Why isn't the country demanding a (4.00)
              a change in their tax status?  How can they get tax exemptions while sitting at the right hand of the Rethugs?

              Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities-Voltaire

              by hairspray on Fri Nov 04, 2005 at 11:15:05 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

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