Skip to main content

View Diary: Republicans refuse to swear in testifying oil execs (124 comments)

Comment Preferences

  •  bullshit (4.00)
    sub·si·dy    ( P )  Pronunciation Key  (sbs-d)
    n. pl. sub·si·dies
    Monetary assistance granted by a government to a person or group in support of an enterprise regarded as being in the public interest.
    Financial assistance given by one person or government to another.
    Money formerly granted to the British Crown by Parliament.

    SUBSIDIES are given to oil and gas industries with my tax dollars in the form of incentives and tax breaks.

    we have NOT determined that no price gouging is going on, because you are assuming that there is actual competition between the stations selling gasoline.

    when have you ever passed 2 gas stations with more than a few pennies difference in their prices?  you won't.  b/c it's not real competition.  b/c they (big oil) don't have to worry about regulation.  b/c they have the politicians in their pockets. b/c they don't have to take an oath when testifying.  b/c they'll never receive more than a soft questioning.

    you can live in a dream world if you want to.  but refusing to acknowledge reality doesn't validate your fantasy.

    •  He's living in a dream world? (none)

      we have NOT determined that no price gouging is going on, because you are assuming that there is actual competition between the stations selling gasoline.


      They're franchises, just like most places you eat lunch at.  The oil companies don't bother running them, you just pay them a set fee for the gasoline and the name. They're owned by individual private citizens spread across the USA.


      when have you ever passed 2 gas stations with more than a few pennies difference in their prices?


      Yes, driving from Dallas to Houston, you'll see a variation as much as $0.20 a gallon.


      Oil and gasoline are fungible.  If you don't like the prices from the US refiners, you can buy it overseas.  A fair share of the gasoline we use is imported, and it's not much cheaper.  CITGO is a branch of PDVSA, the Venezuelan state oil company.  Are they running the political show as well?

      •  i can eat lunch at home (none)
        i can have a 99 cent hamburger at wendy's or a $20 steak at carrabas (i highly recommend the filet marsalas for any meat eaters among us)
        i can get a 99 cent cup of coffee at mcdonalds or a $5 mocha from starbucks or i can buy a pound of coffee and filters and make 100 cups of coffee for the same price at home.

        w/a reasonable amount of income, i can make my eating habits match my budget. i can buy my clothes at target if i can't afford hecht's or i can buy my clothes at goodwill if i can't afford target.

        there are infinite choices out there, b/c of franchising.  that is not true in energy.

        do you have a choice of who is your energy provider?  i don't.  it's progress energy for electric and piedmont natural gas for gas.  can i shop around prices?  no i cannot. i get the price they give me.  i can either not use electricity or gas or i can pay the price they send down the pike.

        i'm glad you think that 286 million americans can just move to the amish country and live off the land, but i think that's a pipe dream.

        electricity and gas are not equivalent to a ham sandwich.

    •  a subsidy is (none)
      a check from the government to the oil company. The government could eliminate all taxes paid by the oil industry and it would not be a subsidy.
      •  kinda the difference (none)
        between sex and a blow job, eh?  potatoes potahtoes.

        assistance to a company (subsidy by def) can be interpreted to mean a waiver of taxes.  perhaps not by a wingnut, but i can't help how your brain works.

        you can define subsidy how you want to.  www.dictionary.com is as reliable a resource as any and it defined it as stated in my previous comment, which applies.

        you argue technicalities b/c you can't argue merits and you're wasting my time.

        •  Good job Quixotic it looks like you wore him down. (none)
          I was gonna jump in but you wuz kickin.

          "The pen is mightier than the sword, but only at a range of greater than five feet" Malaclypse the Younger

          by buhdydharma on Wed Nov 09, 2005 at 03:52:00 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

        •  asdf (none)
          monetary assistance. monetary = money. Giving money = subsidy.

          A tax reduction simply means you allow them to keep what was already theirs, while giving them no money.

          I guess a mugger subsidizes me when he picks someone else to rob. Or that the government subsidized us all when they lowered the tax rates.
          I like the defintion fine. your use of it...

          welfare is a subsidy

          •  oh for christs sake (none)
            taxes=money you are required to pay as your fair share of government programs

            tax reduction=a dollar amount borrowed from future generations given by republicans to potential campaign donors offsetting what you really owe by what they are requiring you to pay

            your fair share-(tax credits+incentives+tax loopholes)=SUBSIDY

            see, when you let people define their own terms, chances are you'll get definitions that fit their world view.  that's why we have webster, so people don't skew the meaning of things.

            if it is determined that your tax burden is X, but the government is willing to reduce your tax burden to Y, the difference between X and Y is A SUBSIDY!!!!!!!!!

            it's SOOOOOOO FUCKING SIMPLE if you don't have your head up the ass of an elephant.

            •  another try (none)
              Taxes are not the 'fair' amount. Just the amount that you're billed. Some taxes are probably quite unfair.

              So of course i don't agree with your equation.

              I can as easily say that all tax breaks are given to people/companies that are currently being taxed unfairly to get them down to a fair level.

              (Your fair share + unfair taxes) - unfair taxes = your fair share = no subsidy.

              But that's crap too since i wouldn't go around defining terms like your fair share.

              I'll stick to the common sense meaning that a subsidy is the government giving out checks. Actually i think i'd say that to be subsidized that the amount going to the company should be greater than the taxes it pays. Wonder if that's true for Amtrak.

              •  well i'll stick to how the dictionary defines (none)
                subsidy. b/c what you call it and don't call it doesn't really matter.  again, in case you missed it, ppl don't get to go around making up their own definitions.

                i cannot help that you are too thick to get that or that you refuse to acknowledge the official definition of a subsidy.

                your leaps of logic make absolutely no sense.  when you attempted to breakdown "monetary assistance" you broke down monetary=money, but you skipped the assistance portion and slipped in your definition of subsidy which had no relevance to the logic you were trying to make.  you were breaking down the definition of subsidy by replacing the definition.  that doesn't work.

                the only logical explanation for what you were saying would be:
                monetary=money
                assistance=a)the act  of assisting b)aid

                therefore the def of subsidy should you choose to extract these two words from the definition and base the term in its entirety on that, would be "financial aid".

                but you don't want to do that, because it doesn't make your point, so you are intent on twisting,  which isn't a valid form of debate.

                financial aid in the realm of education could be a grant, scholarship, or loan and in some cases a reduction in tuition (my college does this for adult students).  not defined entirely as a gift since some financial aid has to be repaid and some is just never charged.  

                monetary assistance doesn't have to be exchanged in the form of you handing someone else a check. the fact that the profits the oil industry makes would be taxed higher if it were any other industry is in fact monetary assistance.  it is the waiving of taxes that would otherwise be paid except that there are credits, exemptions and incentives given to oil companies that other industries do not enjoy.  it is assistance for those companies.

                you can't mangle terms to make them fit your point of view, no matter how you try.

                •  me too (none)
                  well i'll stick to how the dictionary defines subsidy. b/c what you call it and don't call it doesn't really matter.  again, in case you missed it, ppl don't get to go around making up their own definitions.

                  No kidding. That's why I posted the dictionary definition BEFORE you did. Right from Merriam Webster.  That's about the last thing you do if your goal is to make your own definiton.

                  i cannot help that you are too thick to get that or that you refuse to acknowledge the official definition of a subsidy.

                  What a strange comment given that I was the first person here to POST THE DEFINITION.

                  See here... http://www.dailykos.com/...

                  I worked right from that official dictionary definition.

                  your leaps of logic make absolutely no sense.  when you attempted to breakdown "monetary assistance" you broke down monetary=money, but you skipped the assistance portion and slipped in your definition of subsidy which had no relevance to the logic you were trying to make.  you were breaking down the definition of subsidy by replacing the definition.  that doesn't work.

                  Money is the Kind of assistance. The definition that I got from Merriam Webster is quite explicit.  "Subsidy: a grant or gift of money"
                  So it ain't me making it up.

                  the only logical explanation for what you were saying would be:
                  monetary=money
                  assistance=a)the act  of assisting b)aid
                  therefore the def of subsidy should you choose to extract these two words from the definition and base the term in its entirety on that, would be "financial aid".

                  I'm quite happy to do that. A subsidy is financial aid. If someone gives you money, that's financial aid, ie a subsidy.

                  but you don't want to do that, because it doesn't make your point, so you are intent on twisting,  which isn't a valid form of debate.

                  It makes my point just fine. All you need to do is show where the government gives financial aid to the oil industry.  It's really easy to do. Observe... Amtrak:

                  http://www.heritage.org/...

                  "Despite receiving $29 billion in federal subsidies over its troubled existence."

                  "Last year's subsidy--topping $1 billion--amounted to more than one-third of Amtrak's operating budget."

                  http://www.commondreams.org/...

                  Weary of Amtrak's continuing losses, including $1.1 billion last year, the administration has also said it would ask for more concessions in the fiscal year beginning Oct. 1. Absent the concessions, the administration would recommend that Congress give Amtrak $521 million, the same as this year, but less than half of what the railroad says it needs.

                  Or
                  http://en.wikipedia.org/...

                  "In fiscal 2004 and 2005, Congress appropriated about $1.2 billion for Amtrak, $300 million more than President Bush had requested."

                  Those are subsidies. If anything, it is the Oil companies that subsidize the government. That's the direction the money flows.

                  financial aid in the realm of education could be a grant, scholarship, or loan and in some cases a reduction in tuition (my college does this for adult students).  not defined entirely as a gift since some financial aid has to be repaid and some is just never charged.  

                  In all these cases, money flows out from the government. So I think subsidy applies to them.

                  monetary assistance doesn't have to be exchanged in the form of you handing someone else a check. the fact that the profits the oil industry makes would be taxed higher if it were any other industry is in fact monetary assistance.  it is the waiving of taxes that would otherwise be paid except that there are credits, exemptions and incentives given to oil companies that other industries do not enjoy.  it is assistance for those companies.

                  Correct, they could hand you the cash. When you receive money you are being subsidized.  

                  Hopefully the difference between an Amtrak and an Exxon is clear. If the government were removed from the equation, Amtrak would have less money available since their subsidy would go away. Oil companies would have more money available since their tax burden would go away.

                  I'll gladly agree that the oil companies receive tax breaks. I find it inaccuate to call them subsidies.

Subscribe or Donate to support Daily Kos.

Click here for the mobile view of the site