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View Diary: Republicans refuse to swear in testifying oil execs (124 comments)

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  •  another try (none)
    Taxes are not the 'fair' amount. Just the amount that you're billed. Some taxes are probably quite unfair.

    So of course i don't agree with your equation.

    I can as easily say that all tax breaks are given to people/companies that are currently being taxed unfairly to get them down to a fair level.

    (Your fair share + unfair taxes) - unfair taxes = your fair share = no subsidy.

    But that's crap too since i wouldn't go around defining terms like your fair share.

    I'll stick to the common sense meaning that a subsidy is the government giving out checks. Actually i think i'd say that to be subsidized that the amount going to the company should be greater than the taxes it pays. Wonder if that's true for Amtrak.

    •  well i'll stick to how the dictionary defines (none)
      subsidy. b/c what you call it and don't call it doesn't really matter.  again, in case you missed it, ppl don't get to go around making up their own definitions.

      i cannot help that you are too thick to get that or that you refuse to acknowledge the official definition of a subsidy.

      your leaps of logic make absolutely no sense.  when you attempted to breakdown "monetary assistance" you broke down monetary=money, but you skipped the assistance portion and slipped in your definition of subsidy which had no relevance to the logic you were trying to make.  you were breaking down the definition of subsidy by replacing the definition.  that doesn't work.

      the only logical explanation for what you were saying would be:
      monetary=money
      assistance=a)the act  of assisting b)aid

      therefore the def of subsidy should you choose to extract these two words from the definition and base the term in its entirety on that, would be "financial aid".

      but you don't want to do that, because it doesn't make your point, so you are intent on twisting,  which isn't a valid form of debate.

      financial aid in the realm of education could be a grant, scholarship, or loan and in some cases a reduction in tuition (my college does this for adult students).  not defined entirely as a gift since some financial aid has to be repaid and some is just never charged.  

      monetary assistance doesn't have to be exchanged in the form of you handing someone else a check. the fact that the profits the oil industry makes would be taxed higher if it were any other industry is in fact monetary assistance.  it is the waiving of taxes that would otherwise be paid except that there are credits, exemptions and incentives given to oil companies that other industries do not enjoy.  it is assistance for those companies.

      you can't mangle terms to make them fit your point of view, no matter how you try.

      •  me too (none)
        well i'll stick to how the dictionary defines subsidy. b/c what you call it and don't call it doesn't really matter.  again, in case you missed it, ppl don't get to go around making up their own definitions.

        No kidding. That's why I posted the dictionary definition BEFORE you did. Right from Merriam Webster.  That's about the last thing you do if your goal is to make your own definiton.

        i cannot help that you are too thick to get that or that you refuse to acknowledge the official definition of a subsidy.

        What a strange comment given that I was the first person here to POST THE DEFINITION.

        See here... http://www.dailykos.com/...

        I worked right from that official dictionary definition.

        your leaps of logic make absolutely no sense.  when you attempted to breakdown "monetary assistance" you broke down monetary=money, but you skipped the assistance portion and slipped in your definition of subsidy which had no relevance to the logic you were trying to make.  you were breaking down the definition of subsidy by replacing the definition.  that doesn't work.

        Money is the Kind of assistance. The definition that I got from Merriam Webster is quite explicit.  "Subsidy: a grant or gift of money"
        So it ain't me making it up.

        the only logical explanation for what you were saying would be:
        monetary=money
        assistance=a)the act  of assisting b)aid
        therefore the def of subsidy should you choose to extract these two words from the definition and base the term in its entirety on that, would be "financial aid".

        I'm quite happy to do that. A subsidy is financial aid. If someone gives you money, that's financial aid, ie a subsidy.

        but you don't want to do that, because it doesn't make your point, so you are intent on twisting,  which isn't a valid form of debate.

        It makes my point just fine. All you need to do is show where the government gives financial aid to the oil industry.  It's really easy to do. Observe... Amtrak:

        http://www.heritage.org/...

        "Despite receiving $29 billion in federal subsidies over its troubled existence."

        "Last year's subsidy--topping $1 billion--amounted to more than one-third of Amtrak's operating budget."

        http://www.commondreams.org/...

        Weary of Amtrak's continuing losses, including $1.1 billion last year, the administration has also said it would ask for more concessions in the fiscal year beginning Oct. 1. Absent the concessions, the administration would recommend that Congress give Amtrak $521 million, the same as this year, but less than half of what the railroad says it needs.

        Or
        http://en.wikipedia.org/...

        "In fiscal 2004 and 2005, Congress appropriated about $1.2 billion for Amtrak, $300 million more than President Bush had requested."

        Those are subsidies. If anything, it is the Oil companies that subsidize the government. That's the direction the money flows.

        financial aid in the realm of education could be a grant, scholarship, or loan and in some cases a reduction in tuition (my college does this for adult students).  not defined entirely as a gift since some financial aid has to be repaid and some is just never charged.  

        In all these cases, money flows out from the government. So I think subsidy applies to them.

        monetary assistance doesn't have to be exchanged in the form of you handing someone else a check. the fact that the profits the oil industry makes would be taxed higher if it were any other industry is in fact monetary assistance.  it is the waiving of taxes that would otherwise be paid except that there are credits, exemptions and incentives given to oil companies that other industries do not enjoy.  it is assistance for those companies.

        Correct, they could hand you the cash. When you receive money you are being subsidized.  

        Hopefully the difference between an Amtrak and an Exxon is clear. If the government were removed from the equation, Amtrak would have less money available since their subsidy would go away. Oil companies would have more money available since their tax burden would go away.

        I'll gladly agree that the oil companies receive tax breaks. I find it inaccuate to call them subsidies.

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