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View Diary: Che Guevara Smacks Bush! (205 comments)

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  •  You STILL haven't read evidence about Che (1.37)
    I guess I have to post it again.... you still seem in denial about what a murderer Che was...

    Che as a guerrilla fighter...

    "...Guevara's critics (Anderson,1997; Fuentes, 2004; Matos, 2002; Morán Arce, 1980; Rojo del Río, 1981) report that he exhibited no great skill in combat, at times during "La Ofensiva" he lacked boldness as for instance when he abandoned Daniel and his men. However, he always demanded intrepidity, and outstanding self-discipline from his subordinates. He had high regard for himself (Guevara, Waters (ed.) 1996) and but far less for others, and was known for racist comments. He soon became one of Castro's most useful aides, and a far readier executioner than such as Universo Sanchez. Guevara was also responsible for the execution of many men accused of being informers, rapists, deserters or spies (e.g. Fuentes, 2004). At least some of these were alleged rivals (e.g. Morán Arce, 1980) or inconvenient non-ideologues...."

    Che in Cuba after revolution...

    "...Che Guevara became as prominent in the new government as he had been in the revolutionary army. In 1959, he was appointed commander of the La Cabaña Fortress prison. During his six months' tenure there from January 2 through June 12, 1959[7], he oversaw the trial and execution of many people, including former Batista regime officials, members of the BRAC[8] secret police, alleged war criminals, and political dissidents. Different sources cite different numbers of executions. Some sources say 156 people were executed, while others give far higher figures. Cuban journalist Luis Ortega, who knew Che as early as 1954, writes in his book "Yo Soy El Che!" that Guevara sent 1,897 men to the firing squad. In his book "Che Guevara: A Biography," Daniel James writes that Che himself admitted to ordering "several thousand" executions during the first few years of the Revolutionary Government. Pierre San Martin, a former prisoner, recalled in a November 1996, El Nuevo Herald article, that he along with multiple other prisoners witnessed Che personally execute a 12 year old boy for trying to defend his father from the firing squads. [9]..."

    Che Guevara was a murderous rat bastard all by himself. The US did not put any guns in his hand, or force him to pull the trigger. He killed far more than enemy soldiers. Che killed helpless prisoners. Thousands of them.

    Please stop with this romantic Che clap-trap. It's all crap. Che Guevara had a chance to be an inspirational figure, and he CHOSE to be a murderous rat bastard instead.

    Stop looking for heroes of from Leninist/Stalinist era. There were none. Not even Gorbachev. He had blood all over his hands, too. He just recognized the handwriting on the wall, and had to choose between starving the Russian people, and ending Stalinism.

    •  Why don't you just keep repeating (none)
      "It's hard work" over and over again.  It would have the same impact.
      •  You refuse to read real evidence, P&P (none)
        I posted real evidence, and you keep repeating propaganda.

        So now, even supporters of Gandhi and MLK are equated with Dubya in you're warped little universe, huh, peaceandprogress?

        Yep, you definitely want to blow the shit outta somethin' in the name of peace.

    •  Repeating your posts over (3.75)
      and over and over.... does not make the point any more clear. I hear what you are saying. I understand your point of view. But being so repetitious does not help your cause. It only takes up space and ticks people off.

      I rated your post "Unproductive" because no new material was added - simply reposts.  That is not productive.  

      Come at this from another angle, quote another author, or try to grasp the nuances of how others see this differently than you.  No one has cornered the market on "The Truth" yet....

      •  Killing thousands of prisoners is a fact. (3.00)
        Please don't give credence to the "there is no facts, only differing opinions" universe of the GOP. There are simple facts that prove things. Killing thousands of unarmed prisoners in your custody makes  the person who did those acts a murderer.
        •  No one is disputing those (none)
          facts. He did what he did.  What is being discussed are your actions, which have not been productive.  And, by the way, the USA certainly doesn't have clean hands when it comes to killing innocent defenseless people. So...
        •  And.... (none)
          you are being hysterical. Nowhere do I deny the "facts"  that you have posted.  I am in no way, shape or form aligned with GOP thinking. You are getting personal over a discussion of ideas. I think you need to get a grip.  

          BTW, we'd be getting much farther today to agree that GW Bush is a murderer, while we are talking about killing unarmed prisoners in your custody.

    •  Red-Baiting is So Easy (3.85)
      But useless if you want to have an intelligent debate.

      Acknowledging that the Cold War was more complicated than a saintly America protecting the world from the Satanic Commies is not the same as calling the leaders of the Soviet Union heroic.  I would never defend the atrocities committed by the leaders of the USSR, particularly Stalin, on their people.  Nor would I defend the atrocities committed by the leaders of the USA, particularly LBJ and Nixon, on the people of Southeast Asia.

      You cannot equate the two sides: the repressiveness of the Soviet Union to its people, even under the more liberal leaders like Khruschev and Gorbachev, was exponentially worse than McCarthyism in the US. But there were few heroes on either side.

      I'd be happy to discuss why you think Che is a "murderous rat bastard" or that he or Gorbachev were "Leninist-Stalinists." But to just throw names and inaccurate terminology out there doesn't acccomplish anything.

      "All the freaky people make the beauty of the world." - Michael Franti

      by SFprogressive on Mon Dec 12, 2005 at 10:01:37 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Stalinism was not anything politically left (none)
        Stalinism was a totatitarian dictatorship using Marxism as a false front. There was nothing progressive about Stalinism.

        What made the Cold War complicated was all the things done wrong by the US in the name on "liberty/democracy." That included the US stomping on a lot of real efforts at positive social progressivism and social justice.

        There was nothing complicated about Stalinism. It was flat out wrong.

        •  I agree completely (4.00)
          with your view on Stalinism.  I disagree with your conclusion that Gorbachev was a Stalinist.  I'm not sure if you described Che as a Stalinist, but that would be completely inaccurate as well.  A large part of Che's popularity is based on his rejection of the warring ideologies of Communism and Capitalism.  He refused to join the Communist Party, feuded with them and with the Soviet Union after the success of the Cuban Revolution, and developed his own revolutionary theories (which unfortunately were as dogmatic and flawed as Lenin's).

          One of the most interesting facts about the Cuban Revolution is that the only political party in Cuba that did not support the revolutionaries was the Communist Party.  The Communist Party leaders in Cuba, as orthodox Marxists, argued that Cuba was not ripe for revolution because it was not yet industrialized. They could not conceive of a revolution succeeding that was not driven by workers in Havana and other Cuban cities.

          "All the freaky people make the beauty of the world." - Michael Franti

          by SFprogressive on Mon Dec 12, 2005 at 10:51:56 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  IMHO, Gandhi wiped the slate clean (none)
            IMHO, Gandhi started progressivism over at square one. We don't need to include bad examples of our past any more.

            I simply refuse to accept murderers in my list of role models. I don't care what else they did. The fact they went on killing sprees of unarmed prisoners in their custody ruins any/all possible "legacy" they could have had to future generations. There are potential justifications for what happens on a battlefield during wartime conditions, but once someone starts killing those who are not armed and can't defend themselves, they have become the very thing we are fighting against.

            •  We agree more than I thought (4.00)
              I do not think Che should be a role model for progressives. I'm opposed to the death penalty even with a fair trial, so I find Che executing prisoners after the revolution to be particularly despicable.

              That being said, I don't think that this means we can't learn anything from Che. No historical world leaders that have lived up to every ideal. Some (like Che) are more flawed than others. But Martin Luther King slept around. So did FDR (to me our greatest president). During the Civil War, Lincoln set the precendent that the Bill of Rights does not apply during wartime by suspending habeas corpus.  Despite their flaws, we have a lot to learn from these great men.

              Che was not a great man.  But we can still learn something from him about integrity, commitment, and dedication. I have no doubt that he believed that his misguided cause and unacceptable tactics were serving the best interests of the world's poor, though I think he was wrong.  And I can respect his bravery in going against a country as powerful as the US, and one that had caused so much damage to Latin America.

              Progressives in the US don't need to adopt Che's tactics or theories.  But we could learn something this current crop of progressive leaders in Latin America. We may not be able to use the "s" word in the US without being branded as Commies, we could be a little less fearful of addressing issues of class and poverty in the US.

              "All the freaky people make the beauty of the world." - Michael Franti

              by SFprogressive on Mon Dec 12, 2005 at 02:20:52 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

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