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View Diary: [ED] My detailed dissection of Robert F. Kennedy Jr 's misguided Op-Ed on Nantucket Wind in the NYT (390 comments)

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  •  you're out of line with your ratings (none)
    It's incorrect to downrate people merely because you disagree with them.  There's no way any part of her post deserves a troll rating.

    You gave one of my posts a 2 for no apparent reason.

    Get it together.  

    Perhaps some mighty victory is growing in you now. - Mike Finley

    by hrh on Sun Dec 18, 2005 at 06:12:43 AM PST

    [ Parent ]

    •  re Ratings ... (none)
      Re the post that I rated, if the only thing there had been the first paragraph, I -- evidently unlike you -- would have felt that it deserved a troll or a 1 (at best).  This is not based on 'agreement' / disagreement, but what I felt was poorly explained (if at all), unproductive over-the-top (IMHO) name calling ("reactionary leftist"). I believe that I was very reasonable for how I explained my rating of the post ...  I seriously do not think that I have or am engaged in 'rating' abuse.  

      As for your post, since you made the comment I went back and there is a detailed explanation of the "2" following your post questioning that rating.

      And, as mentioned there, I think that my ratings ratio re 4s, 2s, and 0s is probably something like 18 to 1 to 1 (in that range). I know that, over time, I have given you many "4s" and, since you are reacting strongly here to a 2, doubt that I've ever given you a '2' before (since this 'rating' conversation has never occurred between us before).

      9/11/05, Day 1469, A count worth keeping? Or, Osama Bin Forgotten?

      by besieged by bush on Sun Dec 18, 2005 at 07:41:36 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Teresa's tone (none)
        derived from an angry reaction to Jerome's tone, which was crude, insulting and bullying.

        The very title of the diary, in its original wording, was so objectionable in this regard that many posters advised Jerome to change it.

        I suspect that you think over-the-top language is OK in Jerome's case because you agree with him.

        Teresa's comment about "reactionary leftist crap" is nothing compared to Jerome's repeatedly calling Kennedy names and accusing him of being a "liar".

        Perhaps some mighty victory is growing in you now. - Mike Finley

        by hrh on Sun Dec 18, 2005 at 08:20:09 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Lies, Damned Lies, and Statistics ... (none)
          The only term that I might -- and I mean might -- disagree with re Jerome would be re "liar" but even then ...

          There is an old (OLD) joke among analysts:  "Lies, Damned Lies, and Statistics".  This is to mean, in essence, that one can easily manipulate 'facts' to create a false impression of what is truth.  Rhethorically, that is what RFK Jr does in this OPED -- he weaves together spurious information, occasionally dazzling with 'facts' (that are themselves open to questioning) that often are contradictory in implications (major shipping channel/area heavily exploited for fisheries but an undamaged natural area -- eat your cake and have it too???).

          In an analytical perspective, 'lying' is not an unreasonable description of this OPED.

          To repeat a post elsewhere in the diary:

          But ... But ... But ... (none / 0)

          What if this were not a halllowed name (RFK Jr) but were Joe Schmoe writing it?  What if, rather than the NY Times, Joe Schmoe had been publishing in the Wall Street Journal?

          Read the words of the OPED, Jerome's words, and Jerome's citations (which are great).  At the end of all that, would you have felt comfortable if Jerome had called Joe Schmoe of the Wall Street Journal Lying, Deceitful, and Pathetic?  I tend to think not.

          In my mind, in this situation, RFK Jr is sullying a hallowed name ...

          While I agree with that he is driven by the shallowest form of NIMBYism, his OPED is -- at minimum -- deceitful and not truthful (thus, dishonest -- if not lying).  Looking at it, all told, and with my concerns over the future of this nation and the world, all told, it makes the OPED and the stance pathetic ... Thus, the OPED writer (Joe Schmoe .. oops, RFK Jr) is, in this case:  deceitful, dishonest and pathetic!

          9/11/05, Day 1469, A count worth keeping? Or, Osama Bin Forgotten?

          by besieged by bush on Sun Dec 18, 2005 at 08:32:04 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  and Jerome (none)
            has wilfully mischaracterized Kennedy's argument, and has avoided addressing any point of Kennedy's (or any point brought up by posters in this discussion) that might detract from his own argument.

            In my view, that makes Jerome deceitful, dishonest and pathetic.

            Perhaps some mighty victory is growing in you now. - Mike Finley

            by hrh on Sun Dec 18, 2005 at 08:49:14 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  We are (none)
              well beyond agreeing to disagree ...

              I simply don't see how Jerome a Paris has "willfully mischaracterized Kennedy's argument"?  

              It seems that he deconstructed the OPED, showed how it was internally inconsistent from paragraph to paragraph, and that much of the 'supporting' evidence seems rather specious.

              And, unlike many other diarists, Jerome seems to engage heavily in his discussions and to take others' perspectives seriously.

              Please call me "deceitful, dishonest, and pathetic" as well because if Jerome a Paris merits this description, then I would be proud to wear the badge as well.

              9/11/05, Day 1469, A count worth keeping? Or, Osama Bin Forgotten?

              by besieged by bush on Sun Dec 18, 2005 at 09:09:54 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  I have addressed this elsewhere (none)
                in my posts to Jerome.  He refuses to acknowledge that the main thrust of Kennedy's op-ed piece is that Nantucket Sound is akin to Yosemite, a special place and a natural national treasure that should be saved from industrialization.

                In spite of the fact that most of Kennedy's article centers on this, and in spite of the fact that Kennedy explicitly states his support for wind-farm technology, Jerome insists that the article is mainly an attack on wind-farm technology.  Jerome refuses to engage in any discussion of the preservationists' concerns.

                Not convincing in the least.

                Perhaps some mighty victory is growing in you now. - Mike Finley

                by hrh on Sun Dec 18, 2005 at 09:37:53 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  RE "Yosemite" ... (none)
                  -1-  The sound, itself, is filled with much economic and commercial activity, from tourism to active commercial fishing to transit of commercial vessels (including those moving fuel oil).  Where is the equivalent, outside tourists, in Yosemite?

                  -2-  The windmills will not, IMHO, desecrate the view and environment.  In many ways, it will enhance these very things:  -1- reducing pollution blown into the area from power plants that otherwise would have to be built; -2- adding artificial habitat for marine life; and, -3- okay, we can disagree, but I have seen windmills in four countries now and, while I might prefer that they didn't have to exist, they are MUCH more attractive than coal plants that I have visited/seen.  

                  And, in general, I have found windmills quite attractive -- coming from someone who did grow up on shores similar to Nantucket and spent many summers working fishing boats off the New England coast ...

                  Are 'windmills' or any manmade construct typically the perfect answer -- no, but on balance -- and I mean a balance of about 99 out of 100, this project seems to make sense ...

                  And, please go read -- for example -- the MHC report and read it for the 'footnotes' (in essence).  There are better battles, in terms of Historic Conservation/Preservation, to fight.

                  9/11/05, Day 1469, A count worth keeping? Or, Osama Bin Forgotten?

                  by besieged by bush on Sun Dec 18, 2005 at 05:41:53 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  You're changing the subject (none)
                    We were talking about Jerome.  I have proven that almost half the article discusses this "special status" of Nantucket Sound.  Whether you agree with Kennedy's opinion or not, it is a FACT that this was the main thrust of his article.  Yet Jerome has tried to deny this, because he doesn't want to address the subject.

                    But since you want to talk about Kennedy's point: I agree with him that the area has value akin to Yosemite.  The activity in the area is transitory and does not permanently affect the view to the sea, as the wind farm will.

                    I also agree with Kennedy that it is crucial to maintain such precious natural areas, wherever possible, even in the midst of development and commercial activity.  Take Central Park, for example.  What would you say if Donald Trump wanted to take a large swath of the park and build another skyscraper, and his argument was "Well, there are already buildings all around here - what harm can one more do?  And the city is one of the most commercial places on earth - why should we keep this particular spot sacrosanct?  If people want woods and fields, they can go out in the country."  Certainly there would be vast economic advantages to developing an area of Central Park.  And the park isn't even a pristine wilderness - it's a designed park.  As such, it's a national treasure.  Shouldn't we save it?

                    I've seen a lot of windmills, in Europe and Southern California, and I don't have strong objections to the way they look.  But to have them strung out across the skyline, impeding the view from one of the most beautiful and well-loved coastlines in the world, is a completely different story.  If they were inland somewhere in a developed area, they would be no problem.

                    There are also many questions that haven't been addressed, as brought up by salmo.  For instance, what happens when the technology becomes obsolete?  Who's going to pay to take the things down?  

                    Another question I have is this: what effect will the construction of this farm have on the beaches, which are a national park?  You can't just dig up a shitload of ocean floor and put in serried ranks of huge windmills and not expect that to cause some damage to the beaches.  How will this affect tourism?  The people behind this are said to be connected to the Big Dig.  Do you know how much of a disruption the construction of the Big Dig was, for years on end?

                    There may be good answers to all of these questions, but so far I haven't seen anything but handwaving.  That makes me very, very wary.

                    Perhaps some mighty victory is growing in you now. - Mike Finley

                    by hrh on Mon Dec 19, 2005 at 01:16:35 AM PST

                    [ Parent ]

    •  In addition ... (none)
      I often rate people with 4s that I am in violent disagreement as there are many Kossacks that eloquently explain positions I disagree with, whose discussions make me think and reconsider my views, and such ...

      By the way, since this is about a "2" given to TeresainPA -- note that I've gave her at least one 4 yesterday in addition to the 2 on the post above.  As explained above, unlike you, her first paragraph really got to me even though I though her final ones were eloquent.

      And, in addition, try going to my 'ratings' -- a quick glance at my record suggests that I understated my Mojo gives -- the ratio re 4s ... 2s ... 1s looks more like 37+ to 2 to 1 than what I stated before ... if not even more 4s ...

      9/11/05, Day 1469, A count worth keeping? Or, Osama Bin Forgotten?

      by besieged by bush on Sun Dec 18, 2005 at 07:46:16 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Last call on this ... (none)
        Spending too much time on this ...

        But of last 120 ratings that I've given, looks like 117 were 4s and three were 2s.

        9/11/05, Day 1469, A count worth keeping? Or, Osama Bin Forgotten?

        by besieged by bush on Sun Dec 18, 2005 at 07:48:29 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  for the last time, (none)
          I couldn't care less about all your other ratings.  I care about these two.

          Perhaps some mighty victory is growing in you now. - Mike Finley

          by hrh on Sun Dec 18, 2005 at 08:21:00 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

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