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View Diary: Domestic Spying is NOT About Terrorism. It is About Dissent UPDATED (152 comments)

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  •  thank you. (4.00)
    quick! someone tell me i'm nuts!

    "after the Rapture, we get all their shit"

    check out Drum Major Institute Blog. it's bitchin'.

    by lipris on Sun Dec 18, 2005 at 07:34:42 PM PST

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    •  Unfortunately I don't think you are. n/t (4.00)

      "Sometimes I wonder whether the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on or by imbeciles who really mean it." - Mark Twain

      by Donna in Rome on Sun Dec 18, 2005 at 07:53:07 PM PST

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    •  you're not nuts (4.00)
      this is very interesting and thought-provoking.  Frankly, I am scared and nervous about what is happening to the country.  BUT one word of caution.  We don't know all the facts yet.  I don't mean that in a mealy mouthed way.  We certainly know enough to see that the President believes he is above the law.  But we don't know the details.  For instance, who is on the list?  why were people on the list selected for surveillance?  what is being done with the information gathered from surveillance?  

      If I had to guess, I'd say you are probably on the right track.  And maybe we won't know for sure for a very long time, or at all.  What you are saying certainly makes a lot of sense.  Why else would Bush have done this outside the FISA protocol?  Smells like he is trying to avoid a paper trial.  But I can't say this with certainty.

      I hope to god we find out.  I also feel like I won't sleep, but I still want to know exactly what happened.  And I want this to stop--I want the rule of law restored, I want there to be legal consequences for the administration breaking the law and spitting on the Constitution.  This is a nightmare.

      •  ..look.. (none)
        ..they wanted the Patriot Act before 9/11.  Even that wasn't enough for them.  This is totally about dissent and not the war/terror.  Just like the Iraq war has nothing to do with terror/9/11.
      •  We don't know.... (none)
        because they won't tell us.  Since they are doing super-secret surveillance and concealing that fact from Congress and the public at large, I say let loose with the most outrageous suspicions you have about what they may be doing, what motivates them, and how illegal it is.  Make them disprove those accusations through proof of the scope, purpose, and limits (if any) on their allegedly legitimate activities.  They'll never have to come clean and defend their conduct if we give them any benefit of the doubt.

        Can money pay for all the days I lived awake/ But half asleep?

        by milton333 on Mon Dec 19, 2005 at 08:25:50 AM PST

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        •  I hear you (none)
          I certainly do not mean to give the Bush admin the benefit of ANY doubt, and I think it is useful to theorize about what we do not know.  But I feel more comfortable, from an intellectual standpoint, in noting when something is a fact and something is a theory (logical, common-sense based though the theory may be).  That doesn't mean the theory is irrelevant and it certainly doesn't mean the theory is wrong.  

          This may be too nuanced.  Hard to explain.  I just feel strongly about delineating between facts and theories (and this is not an evolution reference!  scientific theory is a different ballgame.  I am not an intelligent designer!!).  none of this means I do not strongly suspect that this diary is on the right track

          •  looks like more reason (none)
            to believe you guys are right--I saw something in NY Times about the administration spying on Greenpeace, PETA, other activist groups.  This is getting scarier and more disgusting as more details emerge about what this "administration" is doing
    •  Not nuts. Sorry. (4.00)
      Not that I think this was done strictly for suppressing dissent.  It was done for the sake of having the full powers they felt entitled to, with all the goodies that come with it.

      Are we still routinely torturing helpless prisoners, and if so, does it feel right that we as American citizens are not outraged by the practice? -Al Gore

      by soyinkafan on Sun Dec 18, 2005 at 09:33:29 PM PST

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      •  Agreed. Not just dissent. (none)
        Other goodies. For example, business-related for administration cronies.

        Think industrial espionage, stealing trade secrets, virtual 'insider' dealing, blocking your competitor's growth strategies, pre-emptive product launches....and many more weapons in the Bloody Business Battleground.

        •  Stifling dissent is a means (4.00)
          Unfortunately it is not the end.

          The stifling of dissent, along with the murder - or in this case the emasculation - of the educated and the intellectuals, the only ones capable of organized resistance, are the necessary pre-conditions to consolidated totalitarian power.

          I would never have thought this country could plunge into fascism and madness.  But I guess Europe thought the same when they first heard about Jews being made to wear little yellow stars, and the Russians thought the same when the first whisper of gulags began to filter down.

          If you want something other than the obvious to happen - you've got to do something other than the obvious...Douglas Adams

          by trillian on Mon Dec 19, 2005 at 10:13:19 AM PST

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